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L'Aquila quake: Italy scientists found guilty of manslaughter

237 点作者 The_Fox超过 12 年前

34 条评论

kevinalexbrown超过 12 年前
This is an extremely important case, in that it underlies a central concern in scientific reporting, and it threatens to change the risks associated with scientific innovation and communication. For instance, if scientists at a pharmaceutical company issue unfounded assurances that a drug is safer than it is in truth, consumers <i>might</i> have a reasonable case. On the other hand, predicting earthquakes is so difficult, even if the scientists had mistakenly suggested that there was no reason to suspect an imminent quake, I find it hard to find justification for a 6 year prison sentence, in addition to damages.<p>But beyond that, it seems the scientists offered no such assurances at the meeting in question. To quote the Nature article (perhaps biased in favor of the scientists):<p><i>The minutes of the 31 March meeting, though, reveal that at no point did any of the scientists say that there was "no danger" of a big quake. "A major earthquake in the area is unlikely but cannot be ruled out," Boschi said. Selvaggi is quoted as saying that "in recent times some recent earthquakes have been preceded by minor shocks days or weeks beforehand, but on the other hand many seismic swarms did not result in a major event". Eva added that "because L'Aquila is in a high-risk zone it is impossible to say with certainty that there will be no large earthquake". Summing up the meeting, Barberi said, "there is no reason to believe that a swarm of minor events is a sure predictor of a major shock". All the participants agreed that buildings in the area should be monitored urgently, to assess their capacity to sustain a major shock.</i><p>To continue the analogy with medicine, it seems similar to a group of scientists suggesting that a particular course of treatment is likely safe, then receiving blame when the treatment goes awry. But blaming medical researchers, or earthquake scientists, could discourage innovative new treatments.<p>As one final point, I'd point out that the occurrence of an earthquake does not disprove the scientists: the likelihood of an earthquake given the data could still have been small, just non-zero. If medical researchers were held accountable for every death resulting from heart transplants gone wrong, we'd never have the overall benefit they provide.
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kitsune_超过 12 年前
I can wholeheartedly recommend a documentary called Draquila – L'Italia che trema [1] about the L'Aquila earthquake.<p>As many of my Italian friends tell me, Italy is an absolutely corrupt shit hole. I remember a scene where they showed recordings of civil protection officials gloating about the disaster on the phone, right after it happened. They talked about the opportunity to make money [2].<p>The head of the national civil protection service is / was notorious in his blatant abuse of emergency powers to give government contracts (construction) without oversight to his crooked friends.<p>[1] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draquila_%E2%80%93_LItalia_che_trema" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draquila_%E2%80%93_LItalia_che_...</a><p>[2] At the end of the trailer: <a href="http://www.universalsubtitles.org/en/videos/lTyjwBhD9HOI/en/250371/" rel="nofollow">http://www.universalsubtitles.org/en/videos/lTyjwBhD9HOI/en/...</a>
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patio11超过 12 年前
This is crazy, but I'll note that it isn't a peculiarly Italian form of crazy. People rush to find scapegoats after every disaster. In the future, consider being as skeptical of those accusations as you were when people accused folks you identify with, like scientists.
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HerrMonnezza超过 12 年前
A blog post [0] about a month ago explains better why they are on trial:<p><pre><code> The prosecution’s closing arguments [...] made it clear that the scientists are not accused of failing to predict the earthquake. “Even six-year old kids know that earthquakes can not be predicted,” he said. “The goal of the meeting was very different: the scientists were supposed to evaluate whether the seismic sequence could be considered a precursor event, to assess what damages had already happened at that point, to discuss how to mitigate risks.” Picuti said the panel members did not fulfill these commitments, and that their risk analysis was “flawed, inadequate, negligent and deceptive”, resulting in wrong information being given to citizens. </code></pre> [0]: <a href="http://blogs.nature.com/news/2012/09/porsecution-asks-for-four-year-sentence-in-italian-seismology-trial.html" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.nature.com/news/2012/09/porsecution-asks-for-fo...</a><p>So the whole thing looks more subtle (and sensible) than many news headlines report...
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ABS超过 12 年前
"It was not immediately known if they planned to appeal." of course they do, it's on many Italian media.<p>And in Italy there is a 3-tier system, this was only the first: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Italy" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Italy</a>
ramses超过 12 年前
Unbelievable.<p>At first I assumed that the scientists must have been out drinking, or must have made up the data ... but, no, they simply gave the best prediction they could, as they should.<p>I guess that forecasters of quakes and weather in Italy now have two alternatives: always claim a disaster is upon them, or move to a country where judges understand statistics.
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jpwagner超过 12 年前
This is unbelievable.<p>Is there anywhere to find all of the facts? This article doesn't give background info.<p>It took some digging to find that indeed the scientists had given a reassuring statement, though it had an expected but-we-cant-be-sure admonition, beforehand.
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wisty超过 12 年前
Predicting an earthquake is predicting when a bent wooden ruler will snap. Sometimes it creaks before it snaps. Sometimes it creaks, and doesn't snap. Sometimes it just snaps.<p>The way to prevent deaths from earthquakes is to ensure buildings can survive them. Modern buildings collapsed in the quake. I wonder if they were built to standard, or if a few corners were cut?
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nsxwolf超过 12 年前
Lesson learned: Don't be an Italian scientist.
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louischatriot超过 12 年前
I can't find words strong enough to say how stupid this is. As wisty said, the good way is to build quake-proof buildings. Of course, that means fighting the Mafia which controls construction work in this part of the country, which takes more guts than judging 6 scientists.
run4yourlives超过 12 年前
Sweet. Now I can sue the weatherman the next time I get caught in the rain.<p>Personally, I'm not surprised at this stupidity. I also won't be surprised if from now on every single report offered suggests that an earthquake will occur tomorrow, making the entire exercise meaningless and probably costing lives in the future.
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purephase超过 12 年前
While I have to believe that this will die through appeals, the long-term implications are enormous.<p>As nxswolf points out, it not only will scare off future scientists interested in working in Italy, but any official/expert tasked with preventing tragedies.<p>The fallout is that, with each possibility, worst-case scenarios will be the norm to avoid culpability over reasoned approach. Not to say that worst-case should not be considered, but dialling up to 11 is never an appropriate public response.<p>Finally, today it is seismologists, tomorrow it could easily be network security folks, application engineers, CTO/CSO's etc. Basically, any situation where the sum-total parts are so large and multi-faceted that no one person/agency could be seen as the expert.<p>Terrible tragedy, terrible fallout. The optimist in me hopes that this is dropped at the next appeal.
headShrinker超过 12 年前
While it's up to scientist to use the best science available. No where to they say scientists are responsible for outcomes. If the failure is based on the best science then what is needed is better science.<p>Ultimately, the failure is on the journalists and news organizations who choose to broadcast the words of the scientists. They have their rapport with the public and have responsibility to uphold their journalistic integrity. What is really at fault here is editorial review of the news organizations. Period. Anyone can say anything, but it is the news corporations that broadcast the message.
ck2超过 12 年前
Why stop there - why not put "God" on trial and call in the church to do defense?
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tisme超过 12 年前
Scapegoating at its best. Really, what a disgrace this is.<p>Scientists are already loathe to communicate directly with the general public for fear of misunderstanding of carefully chosen words. This kind of farce will cause a rift that will take a long time to heal. If ever.<p>What's next? Putting the Earth on trial for manslaughter?
tgb超过 12 年前
Risk prediction is about minimizing expected risk, which does not exactly correspond to the eventual damage done. This means that there will be times when they are wrong. If we punish risk predictors this harshly for being wrong, no one will want to take this job up since it basically guarantees eventually being convicted of manslaughter. But without such people we have no hope of ever mitigating such disasters.<p>This ruling scares me.
ChristianMarks超过 12 年前
That will teach those smug seismologists. &#60;/jk&#62;
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arjn超过 12 年前
I'm stunned. I hope other countries are not stupid enough to follow Italy down this ridiculous path. Can the EU intercede and do something here ?
hannes0x21超过 12 年前
Well, sure thing, noone can predict earthquakes. But the same is true for claiming that there won't be one.<p>Prior to the earthquake on April 6th, 2009, there have been several smaller ones. On March 30th, there was a quake with a magnitude of 4.1. People were really concerned that something was about to happen shortly. So the day after these scientists claimed, that there won't be an earthquake in the near future. This was surely to calm the public. However, they were wrong. And according to the court, they didn't make their point clear enough, that they are basically unable to make such predictions.<p>Although I don't follow the sentence, I somehow get the judge's point.<p>More info here [german]: <a href="http://podcast-mp3.dradio.de/podcast/2012/10/22/dlf_20121022_1637_85aec7ff.mp3" rel="nofollow">http://podcast-mp3.dradio.de/podcast/2012/10/22/dlf_20121022...</a>
mahesh_rm超过 12 年前
We live in a land where silence is king Whispers have all disappeared Cry for an echo, you won't hear a thing Silence is king around here Silence is king around here Desperate measures come from desperate times I don't regret what I have done If my actions made you speak your mind Angry words are better than none<p>I am Italian. Sense does not understand how things work around here, Poetry does. Galileo could have been jailed 2 years ago. As a fledgling phd entrepreneur, at 28, I am leaving Italy.
napolux超过 12 年前
Well, the sentence is not really about "earthquake prediction", but about the fact that some hours before the big earthquake alarms from the INGV (the italian institute for earthquake monitoring, one of the best in the world) were ignored. Of course nobody can predict earthquakes, but in L'Aquila's quake there were strong evidence of "something happening", and they were ignored: that's why they were found guilty. P.s. I'm from Italy
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nollidge超过 12 年前
Why weren't any psychics sued?
godDLL超过 12 年前
Stakes are raised?<p>&#62; If the scientific community is to be penalised for making predictions that turn out to be incorrect, or for not accurately predicting an event that subsequently occurs, then scientific endeavour will be restricted to certainties only and the benefits that are associated with findings from medicine to physics will be stalled."<p>May work as a fraud deterrent too. May.
alpatters超过 12 年前
presumably the result of the quake would have been the same if the scientists didn't give a reassuring message? And now they are in jail, if another quake strikes, the same will happen again. Surely it is better that scientists are at least trying to predict the quakes, even if they get it wrong sometimes?
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Mordor超过 12 年前
I know this position disagrees with what everyone's saying but here it is:<p>- scientists need to be held accountable in a court of law<p>- safety must always come first<p>- evacuation, while seemingly over the top, should be a way of life in an earthquake zone.<p>Who survived 9/11? Those who evacuated regardless of the risks and advice given at the time.
smogzer超过 12 年前
If the data (plots, spectograms, etc) was made public on realtime the opinions/warnings would be issued by independent scientists or ordinary people or algorithms that would issue the chance of something happening and nobody would get punished.<p>RAW DATA NOW.
izietto超过 12 年前
The sentence is in "first grade" (in Italy there are 3 grades of sentence and the third is definitive), so things can change in the other grades, and probably will, because this sentence caused an uproar here in Italy.
mechnik超过 12 年前
I wish the convicted a speedy and successful appeal and hope they take comfort in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8yEnu9_SGc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8yEnu9_SGc</a>
zerostar07超过 12 年前
As much as i'd like to keep the scientists accountable for their work, seriously, letting people live in medieval apartments in a city with such history of earthquake disasters was the real crime.
fatjokes超过 12 年前
I haven't been this scared of stupidity since I watched Here Comes Honey Boo Boo.
wololo超过 12 年前
previous discussion: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2585962" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2585962</a>
mammalfriend超过 12 年前
The amazing Italian legal system strikes again...
89a超过 12 年前
&#62; Specialists wrongly predict something<p>&#62; Charge them for manslaughter<p>&#62; Suddenly no one wants to be a specialist<p>&#62; Don't get any predictions good or bad at all anymore
terraretta超过 12 年前
I, for one, applaud this ruling. There's no reason why scientists should be above the law. It's funny how often they complain of not being taken seriously enough, but then when they are, and something bad happens as a result, they're quick to deny responsibility. Are seismologists serious scientists? If they are, they must accept the consequences. If not, we don't need them. It's as simple as that.