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The People's Bailout

219 点作者 dorkitude超过 12 年前

31 条评论

patio11超过 12 年前
For the benefit of folks who might not understand how debt collection works, which may include OWS: if you buy $10,000 of an individual's debt for $500 and then forgive the debt, they have just incurred income of $10,000 and are obligated to pay taxes on it exactly as if you had handed them $10,000 in cash for services rendered. If you don't inform the IRS that you forgave the debt, via a 1099-C, you're going to get wrist-slapped mightily if they think it is an honest mistake or, if you're, say, doing it as a political statement, you will be afforded the opportunity to make your political statement in front of a judge hearing your case for criminal tax evasion.<p>This is not accounting advice, by the way. There's some wrinkles if the debt was caused by your principal residence, due to some of the recovery measures passed two years ago. If its, say, CC or medical debt, though...
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JumpCrisscross超过 12 年前
This is a curious activity - non-performing debt, i.e. notes not generating any cash for the holder and thus not extracting any cash from the ower, are being exchanged at market value, thus transferring cash via an intermediary (OWS) from a donor to the lender. This results in a non-cash accounting change for the ower and a boon for the lender. Economic activity is boosted if the lender's investment/consumption is more sensible than the donor's - ower does not figure into the algebra. This is likely to be stimulative if the lender's marginal propensity to save excluding risk investing is low.<p>If these are performing loans, on the other hand, the donor is, via OWS, acting as a market maker for the lender, providing them with liquidity/immediacy while granting the ower cash flow. This is like a stimulus payment to the ower (provided they consume the extra cash flow or invest it in risk assets). It's also a bail-out to the lender.<p>This is structurally identical to the Federal Reserve buying banks' assets, e.g. loans, and Washington increasing high-velocity fiscal spending. OWS's plan has the downside of being market distorting (via moral hazard) while the prior is less so (Fed's buying activity can be distorting if not done properly or if amped up to supplement Congressional inaction).<p>I came here expecting to chastise this but, economically speaking, it's a better use of surplus savings than having them sit idly in the money markets. It is, though, worse than building things, funding research, or helping feed starving children. Kudos, still, for beating par (the money markets).
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marknutter超过 12 年前
How does OWS think this debt accumulated? Debt isn't some random accident like getting hit by a car while crossing the street. You have to get yourself into debt. It used to be taboo, but it's acceptable to get into debt these days and worse yet, walk away from it. OWS, to me, represents an entitled generation.
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loudin超过 12 年前
So, what would prevent me from going into a massive amount of debt, not repaying it, and asking everyone else to foot my bill?<p>This seems like OWS is saying, "Well, corporations got greedy and were bailed out. Now it's the people's time to do the same thing." Why is something, when supported by a corporation, immoral when the same thing, supported by "the people", is righteous?<p>This seems like it's just encouraging bad behavior all around. Debtors get some money, people in debt get a massive discount, and people who play by the rules are even more at a disadvantage.<p>We need to restore trust in the system by educating people and holding corporations accountable for fraud - not by undermining the loan system. This move by OWS sickens me.
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cypherpunks01超过 12 年前
This is a pretty interesting idea, economically speaking. Does anyone know what is necessary in order to become a debt broker? Being able to buy your own debt (by proxy) for pennies on the dollar might have pretty broad implications.
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noonespecial超过 12 年前
I detect the possibility of a closed debt-like loop. There must be a way in this system to buy <i>my own</i> $14,000 debt for $500 and forgive <i>myself</i>. Its just a matter of path-finding.<p>So theoretically, I can travel backwards in debt... Profit!
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rdl超过 12 年前
It would be cool if someone created something like prosper, where I could see bad debt from people, and they could make pitches for why I should extinguish theirs. For $x, I could purchase and extinguish N x $x in debt, where N is some function of type, time to maturity, etc.<p>I personally would be more likely to buy deserving-seeming medical, failed business, etc. debt than car notes or whatever, but maybe others would have their own preferences.
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RollingJubilee超过 12 年前
No forgiving. Forgiveness implies someone did something wrong. These debts are illegitimate and should never have existed in the first place. These debts are immoral, if anyone needs forgiving it is the banks.<p>We are not forgiving debts, we are abolishing them.
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heyrhett超过 12 年前
The problem that I see with this is that once your debt is sent to collections, that mark is already on your credit report for 7 years, even if you pay off the debt.<p>So, "forgiving" the debt is pretty meaningless. People still have their credit report tarnished, which leads to higher interest rates, higher car insurance, and is basically another way to oppress people who are already poor. The only advantage to the debtors in this case is that they won't get phone calls from collection agencies. It's a nice idea though.
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bmccormack超过 12 年前
After OWS forgives random debt, is it also going to help teach people how to avoid debt again? By avoiding keeping a balance on credit cards? By saving up an emergency fund for a rainy day? By saving for retirement?<p>A one-time forgiveness of debt is a generous gift to be received, but unless you have the habits to avoid debt again, it will just grow back again over time.
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johnx123-up超过 12 年前
Not sure why the OP's title <i>Occupy Wall Street is buying up debt and forgiving it immediately</i> was changed to <i>The People's Bailout</i> (that was more meaningful, IMHO).
joe_the_user超过 12 年前
The reason that any bank that sells debt would attempt to avoid this kind of thing happening should obvious. Moral hazard. If a debtor can refuse to pay and then only pay what the bank really then thinks the loan is worth (with few if any penalties), then <i>every debtor is going to do that</i>.<p>Obviously, OWS is doing this as a political statement that the debt system in the US is corrupt, unjust or something. It does seem like things such as education shouldn't throw a kid into life-long debt from the get-go or the benefits should be more, uh, clear.<p>The student loan system today generates a huge number of defaults. The contradictory situation where the banks naturally write down this debt but work hard to keep the written-down out of the hands of the debtors may be an Achilles heal of the system.
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cjdrake超过 12 年前
When did HN become reddit /r/politics?
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aristus超过 12 年前
Careful; debt forgiveness can be treated as taxable income. The lucky winners may end up with a nasty unforgivable tax bill.
lifeisstillgood超过 12 年前
For me the big question is whose debt do you forgive first?<p>You are making a political statement here - great.<p>You are making an even bigger one if you choose to forgive the debt of White folks before black, black before White, republicans and democrats, short v tall and fat v thin<p>even a lottery seems to send the wrong message<p>And doing it blind by just buying anonymous tranches will reveal the biases of the original moggage sellers.<p>A mess I would not like to sort through<p>ps at 30:1 anyone have an idea total needed to be raised to forgive everyones debt? Even ignoring Market reproving to take this into account?
mkr-hn超过 12 年前
I see a few people coming at this discussion from a disturbing place.<p>They seem to exist in a world of absolute rights and absolute wrongs, where no leniency can be granted based on the circumstances of the wrong, and no sympathy, empathy, or support is granted to account for the life that led to the wrong.<p>It sounds like a sad and hostile world.
abdurraheem超过 12 年前
someone should write a guide on how to buy up your own debt for 1/30th of the cost
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chmike超过 12 年前
I really don't understand the principle. Is it possible a bank would sell a 10K$ dept for 500$ ?<p>The root of the problem is that banks or credit companies sold loans to people who were unable to pay back the loan. The banks and credit companies new it but didn't care. This is criminal. The people who took the loan weren't educated enough or in proper control of their impulsions. In don't see much difference with selling drugs in the open.<p>I've been told that in Belgium each loan of the citizen are registered in a national file. If that person become insolvent, any loans to that person not registered or given when he was above 33% may be erased by a judge.<p>This is to provide a natural incentive to loaners to avoid screwing people.<p>Buying loans is like trying to emptying a sinking ship with a spoon. Fix the hole first !
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mkr-hn超过 12 年前
I wasn't surprised by the examples of the just-world fallacy running amok in this thread, but I was surprised by how many people made counterarguments. Is HN finally getting a broader worldview?
SeoxyS超过 12 年前
Instead of operating this as a charity (doesn't scale), why not sell the debt back to the original lendees at face value. (Buy back your $15k loan for $500.)<p>I guess that wouldn't be legal, though?
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patrickgzill超过 12 年前
What if the person contests the debt in some way, but OWS buys it and forgives it anyway? Would the IRS agree that contested debt should be treated differently come tax time?
corkill超过 12 年前
Actual wall street gets bailed out by government (taxpayers).<p>OWS wants taxpayers to voluntarily bailout private individuals.<p>I understand the human side of it, helping relieve people of debt seems like a noble cause. But the economics of it seem so warped to me, can someone explain why allocating money to forgive private debt is a good thing economically?
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oscilloscope超过 12 年前
If this happens on a large scale, will it cause deflation? It seems like it would reduce the money supply.
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pmorici超过 12 年前
What are they talking about when they say, "As you can see from our test run, the return on investment approaches 30:1. That’s a crazy bargain!"<p>Is that a joke or are they actually making a return on the investment?
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washedup超过 12 年前
Won't a result of this be an increase in the "cost" of debt, and hence interest rates on variable loans would raise for everyone else while other's are being paid off? Seems bad..
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conductr超过 12 年前
Do these people still get stuck with a crappy credit rating? Doesn't seem fair to everyone else if their score stays good due to OWS picking up the slack
pooyak超过 12 年前
How does buying debt from creditors work? Would something like this actually cause buying debt more expensive and thus benefit creditors instead?
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gmkoliver超过 12 年前
Does anyone have a number for the size of the consumer distressed debt market? Not getting much luck searching so far.
thezoid超过 12 年前
Won't this run the risk of causing out of control inflation?
brianbreslin超过 12 年前
This is awesome beyond words.
mynameishere超过 12 年前
How to design a shit website . com
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