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Engineers suck at finding the right jobs

329 点作者 mattetti超过 12 年前

23 条评论

ChuckMcM超过 12 年前
It is an interesting screed. I was thinking when I wrote up the comment about how VP's might feel about leaving a position that there is an interesting dividing line which doesn't get talked about a lot, Matt touches on it but didn't really call it out, its this, "What are you trying to get done?"<p>Early in my career Steve Bourne gave me useful advice, he said the difference between junior engineers and senior engineers was that senior engineers had an agenda. More specifically they had an execution goal (like write a new file system, or create a product that solves problem 'X') and they worked toward it.<p>This is a both a hugely motivating and hugely scary thing, its motivating because you don't have to ask "what do I do now?" the direction just falls out of where you are vs where you are trying to go. It is scary because you can find you're goal isn't compatible with any of the company's goals. When you discover that what you want to do can't be done at the company you are working at, you either have to change goals or leave. But its not a 'feel bad about it' leaving it is 'hmm, this isn't going to work out here so lets go somewhere that it could'.<p>The alternative to having an agenda is "Goofing off and waiting for someone to give you a task." There are a lot of engineers who operate in that mode, do their assigned tasks at an acceptable quality level and without too much schedule slip. They are great to have around because people with agendas and use them to move the agenda forward, but they don't make for very good 'senior' people because they really don't care what they work on, its not their main focus.<p>It is important to note that you can't "fail" if you're just goofing off, as one of my kids put it, "It isn't procrastination if you don't have anything you need to do." You can however rationalize your low work output by the fact that your management really hasn't given you all that much to do, so whose fault is that? Whereas if you have an agenda, a goal, a destination, you can fail to make it to that destination. "You said you were going to build a game that could crush Farmville, you failed." Reading the blog post from Speck about Glitch shutting down, "we failed to develop an audience." They had a goal, they didn't get there.<p>Matt's advice that if you don't know what you want, you can't choose reasonably is solid. Start by deciding what you want to do, and pick something that will take a while as early goal achievement has its own problems.
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ricardobeat超过 12 年前
The issue of seniority always bugs me. If a 26 year old guy who writes "good enough" code can be a Senior, which I see very often, what's left?<p>Personally I wouldn't feel right with a title including "senior" until I've got at least 10y experience, generated millions in revenue and lead a team of &#62;10. And I'd still prefer not having a title. Unless the only way to increase a salary is by taking the title, which seems to be the problem.
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tinco超过 12 年前
So, it is a noble thing Matt is doing here, but my skepticism always kicks in when a post like that does not include a self evaluation.<p>I am sure you could fish up some great job opportunities for anyone who writes you a nice e-mail. But is your own job the job you want from your career?<p>I mean, being tech lead on a big company is nice and all. But the company is just a coupon distributor, I'm not saying that I work for the sexiest startup in the world, but I'm just saying that 'up' is not always the most satisfactory trajectory for a career.<p>I don't think I'd be happy for long at a company like LivingSocial, unless you guys are hiding something behind there that makes it a very nice place to work at?
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fecak超过 12 年前
Recruiter of software engineers here, and liked the article. I can't begin to estimate what percentage of job changes are attributed to the work of recruiters (recruiting firms, not internal company recruiters), but I think that one reason engineers sometimes make poor career decisions is that they are being coached by recruiters to make them.<p>The technology industry has created a vibrant technical recruiting industry that feeds off of it, and it is often an unhealthy relationship. The recruiter (especially contingency recruiter) has a huge financial reward if he/she can convince the engineer to take the job, regardless of whether it is a good career move - the recruiter generally is paid as long as you stay 90 days. The size of the reward in addition to the competitive nature of the business creates some incentives that lead to trust and ethic issues. It is this problem that inspired my article <a href="http://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/09/17/disrupt/" rel="nofollow">http://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/09/17/disrupt/</a><p>If you are dealing with a recruiter that talks about the job he/she is trying to fill before asking you about what YOU are looking for in a job, you are probably not talking to someone that is trying to help you make a good career move.
acuozzo超过 12 年前
&#62; Now is an awesome time to be a software engineer (probably best time ever).<p>I don't agree with this statement at all, as it's getting harder and harder to find low-level work (e.g., C and *asm) and that's the __only__ kind of programming that I enjoy doing.<p>I'll start looking for another career when I have to consider putting words like ``full-stack'' or ``cloud'' on my resume in order to find work.
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confluence超过 12 年前
Oh look another X sucks at blah. I always reverse these sentences to get interesting ideas. What if blah sucks at X - namely, what if jobs suck at finding the right engineers.<p>Now we're talking :D<p>This is a problem in HR not engineering - whose sole purpose is to find good engineers, pay them well enough so that they stay, make an environment good enough to keep them happy, and put them on the right projects to maximise value.<p>Guess how you fix this problem? You go Valve style. The problem isn't engineers, it's HR who can't get their act together.
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PaulHoule超过 12 年前
There are fundamental issues here.<p>For a sales guy, you can say he brought in $X in revenue that led to $Y in profits, so the value he creates is visible. It's a lot more complex than that, but at least there is a theoretical basis to value his work.<p>I spent five years working on a non-profit web site that was used by more than 80k people a day. We estimated the site produced $250M a year in value for end users. We also had no real plan for capturing that value or funding it so there wasn't a pie I could claim a piece of at all, just what they said they could pay me.<p>I've worked at a number of places where the model was spend $X to develop something with Y developers over Z months and maybe we can sell it. These often are fun jobs. This includes a lot of Y Combinator kind of companies but also stodgy companies you'll find in midwestern towns.<p>I think the median project of this type either (i) doesn't ship a product in the end or (ii) gets revenue that is a small fraction of $X. Again, there's no pie to split.<p>This of course begs the question. Does working on a project like Colors make you a negative net productivity programmer whatever you do?<p>I guess in theory a place like this could pay you heavily in equity or bonuses, but with the odds of getting no payout that's really not fair if you have to develop your skills, be highly responsible in so many ways and maybe even support a family.<p>The companies where the revenue is more obvious are job shops, but these tend to be horrible places to work. Of 5 that I had some involvement with, 4 of them were outright failing businesses because the business plan made no sense or they spent 12 years building web sites with an obscure language that is now eol. The last one is profitable and growing but they had no benefits, low base pay, but they might pay a bonus into your 401k at the end of the year based on "the value of your contributions to the company." Well, the principles of the company never got tried of yakking about the high value of the sales work they do so you know who is #1 and #2 when bonus time comes around at the end of the year.<p>So in all my years as a pro programmer, I can say I only worked for three months at a place where my work had a clear connection to revenue it was creating and compensation wise it was the worst job I've ever had.
lumens超过 12 年前
Looking at this problem through the lens of engineering is obvious for most HN readers, but it's an issue everyone faces.<p>It's very hard to understand what opportunities exist for YOU specifically in the employment market. Seeking out potential jobs is laborious and you can't take the time to talk to every recruiter that calls.<p>What would be better is if you had a good way to safely broadcast what is interesting to you professionally and indicate the types of opportunities you'd like to hear more about. Safely is the key word here. The system breaks down if it puts your current gig at risk.<p>Check out <a href="http://www.mightyspring.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.mightyspring.com</a>.<p>We're working on solving this exact problem. Our goal is to help people stay on top of the employment market and be made aware when a really special opportunity presents itself.
khetarpal超过 12 年前
If engineers suck at finding the right job, and companies can't find the right people, then this problem is screaming for better solutions. The challenge here I see is that every employer is looking for 'rockstars', even if the actual job responsibilities may not require one.<p>So, if I'm a 'rockstar', its a big hurdle to separate the reality from the marketing pitch of the magic job. What can be used as a signal for filtering good quality jobs from the less desired ones? It's surely not money, because plenty of big companies will pay you ample to make good power points.<p>I think a startup that can figure out the right mix of signals to indicate the <i>job quality</i>, which may be a combination of challenging problems, team, work-environment will really hit it big.
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oboizt超过 12 年前
It really is an exciting time for software engineers. I'm a soon-to-graduate student and have gotten so many job offers that I had to pretty much stop talking about it with friends/family. Does anyone else feel awkward admitting how easy we have it in tech right now when there are so many people struggling to find jobs?
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Apreche超过 12 年前
This whole thing seems like it is written by a recruiter having a hard time to get people to leave their current jobs for new ones.
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jere超过 12 年前
&#62;I remember a family friend telling me when I was a kid that computers are going to be the future and that there will be a lot of jobs in this field.<p>That's great. I had the opposite. For some reason my dad was convinced computer programming was on the decline and was 100% against me going into computer science. I did engineering instead of CS and later regretted it. Going back to get my MCS now.
hans超过 12 年前
Also when you get to early 40s doing web dev or web apps, especially if you dont have a GooG or stanford degree, your competition for work is essentially early 30 somethings, and age discrimination really becomes apparent. I have no idea what to do next for challenge and m0ney.
w1ntermute超过 12 年前
I thought the author sounded familiar. He's the person who gave this blatantly sexist and offensive presentation, <i>CouchDB: Perform Like A Pr0n Star</i>, at the Golden Gate Ruby Conference in 2009: <a href="http://ompldr.org/vZ2I1cA/gogaruco-couchdb-090418194027-phpapp02.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://ompldr.org/vZ2I1cA/gogaruco-couchdb-090418194027-phpa...</a>
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jader201超过 12 年前
I appreciated this post, and it's good timing considering I've felt lost in my career for at least a year. I switched jobs 6 months ago, and am already considering changing again. I've had several interviews, and in spite of the fact that everyone I work with tell me what an asset I am and how talented I am, I can't seem to find a good fit.<p>I'm a .NET developer, and am considering changing to Rails, just to see if that opens up better/different opportunities. But that's a big time investment for me -- having a family leaves me with little time as it is -- and I'm not even sure that will leave me much better off than I am now.<p>I really could use some direction, but have not been able to nail down a way to find direction. Matt, I may take you up on your offer.<p>I would also welcome and general thoughts from the HN community.
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jvehent超过 12 年前
Don't look for the right job. Look for the right company, and evolve once you're in.
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Sniffnoy超过 12 年前
&#62; We are good at solving technical problems in an objective way but when it comes to us, to our jobs and future, we seem to have a bit of a hard time. Why?<p>Obvious answer: A good technical problem can be fun, while such real life things are just tedious and stressful, so you avoid thinking about them.
ehuard超过 12 年前
Good post, as it happens I'm also pondering the things you're talking about. I like that you to offer to talk things over with anyone who asks! I'd be curious to know what you learn from it.
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ntide超过 12 年前
What would you say to a college student who's just starting out?
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bjhoops1超过 12 年前
Like the author in his conversation, I found myself reading this article looking for the answer to the question of what I should career-wise myself. doh!
shmerl超过 12 年前
<i>&#62; “Money doesn’t buy happiness” and it shouldn’t be your primary reason to accept or leave a job.</i><p>Great phrase.
linpythio超过 12 年前
Very valuable attitude.I think to be a indie developer is better for some developers.
michaelochurch超过 12 年前
OP: what do you think of open allocation?<p><a href="http://www.quora.com/Software-Development-Methodologies/What-is-Open-Allocation" rel="nofollow">http://www.quora.com/Software-Development-Methodologies/What...</a><p>Personally, I think it's the only long-term solution to this bilateral matching problem: engineers can't find good work, employers can't find good engineers. The problem is that most software engineers are indeed unskilled (and therefore few companies are willing to start interesting projects that might make use of skill) because high-quality work is so rare. It's a vicious cycle and open-allocation is the only way I can see of breaking it.<p>If they're intrinsically motivated, engineers are worth millions per year. If companies left them alone and were able to capture even 10% of their true potential, they'd do better than any closed-allocation shop.<p>There's an indirection that occurs whereby engineers apply to companies-- not specific projects or work sets-- and (until they've been at the company for a while and can change jobs without embarrassment) relinquish their right to choose what they work on. (A certain once-great search giant is notorious for abusing opacity.) They have no control over how they start in the company, and if they're not especially socially skilled, this will determine what kinds of projects and opportunities they get in the future. This indirection gives a lot of power to middle managers, who don't have the vision or inclination to design and allocate work in a way that would enable engineers to have real careers and improvement, and the result is an industry where stagnation, burnout, and middle-age obsolescence are the norm.
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