TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Nobel Prize winning biochemist says all biofuels are nonsense

181 点作者 sasoon超过 12 年前

22 条评论

gojomo超过 12 年前
Here's an even harsher assessment of plant-derived ethanols from Dr. Tad Patzek, chairman of the Department of Petroleum &#38; Geosystems Engineering at The University of Texas at Austin:<p><i>Basically, [corn] ethanol is obtained from burning methane, coal, diesel fuel, gasoline, corn kernels, soil and environment. We destroy perhaps as many as 7 units of free energy in the environment and human economy to produce 1 unit of free energy as corn ethanol, and make a few clueless environmentalists happier and a few super rich corporations richer. The story is even worse for switchgrass ethanol.</i><p>(As quoted from <a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9619" rel="nofollow">http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9619</a> )
评论 #4824039 未加载
评论 #4823194 未加载
评论 #4823105 未加载
uvdiv超过 12 年前
He really, really misses the point: what matters most is economics, not technical metrics in vacuo.<p><i>“… these values even do not take into account that more than 50% of the energy stored in the biofuel had to be invested in order to obtain the biomass (for producing fertilizers and pesticides, for ploughing the fields, for transport) and the chemical conversion into the respective biofuel.” [...] “The production and use of biofuels therefore is not CO2-neutral. In particular, the energy input is very large for the production of bioethanol from wheat or maize, and some scientists doubt that there is a net gain of energy. Certainly the reduction of CO2 release is marginal.”</i><p>In real world economics, biofuels are not energy; they are high-density liquid transport fuels. The economics make it clear: e.g., gasoline costs ten times as much as coal, per unit energy. You're paying for the chemistry, not the joules.<p>It matters <i>very litte</i> in real life, that much of the energy (cheap) is wasted; that much of the energy comes from (cheap, external) sources. If biofuels are viable, they can be seen as a conversion of energy to hydrocarbons: of (comparatively) cheap electricity and methane/hydrogen to expensive liquid fuel. Not as a primary energy source. It's the carbon that's valuable.<p>Farming machinery can be electric powered. Nitrogen fertilizer can be created from nuclear- or solar- powered hydrogen. And voilà, it is carbon-neutral. Nuclear electricity, solar electricity, hydrogen -- these are only marginally viable fuels (c.f. the world market for EV's; opinions may differ). Converting them to liquid hydrocarbons is a very useful thing.
评论 #4822925 未加载
评论 #4825210 未加载
评论 #4823108 未加载
doublerebel超过 12 年前
Headline is misleading. The important, specific point is in the conclusion:<p><pre><code> ...we should not grow plants for biofuel production. </code></pre> Using biofuels from what would otherwise be waste (decomposing waste biomass, used fry oil) is still efficient and valuable.<p>Reading between the lines, if we want to run cars on solar power, we should do it with electrics and solar cells, not photosynthesis.
评论 #4822845 未加载
评论 #4823216 未加载
jeremyjh超过 12 年前
He is absolutely correct that biofuels are not efficient use of land. But the market would quickly sort that out if it were not for biofuel subsidies. That is what needs to be stopped.
评论 #4822879 未加载
评论 #4822990 未加载
评论 #4823168 未加载
评论 #4822882 未加载
worldsayshi超过 12 年前
"nonsense" feels like an understatement. It competes with our food sources and even more so with ecological diversity. It should be one of those factors that assure that food prices rise to the sky with fuel prices and as they both go up, nature will fold. Feel free to criticise my ignorance of economics. I'm probably mostly wrong.
评论 #4823174 未加载
TomAnthony超过 12 年前
Elon Musk, in the Q&#38;A section of his recent talk at Oxford (download here: <a href="http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/videos/view/211" rel="nofollow">http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/videos/view/211</a>) also said he believes all biofuels are useless.<p>His point was that putting energy into biofuels is an inefficient way to use the suns energy, and then getting it out is also inefficient. He compared the efficiency to solar.
评论 #4823195 未加载
Cowen超过 12 年前
I don't know a single thing about biochemistry or biofuels, but in reading this I can't help but be reminded of Arthur C. Clarke's first law of prediction:<p>&#62; When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
评论 #4822709 未加载
评论 #4822741 未加载
MikeTaylor超过 12 年前
In the end, aren't coal and oil biofuel? Just fuels that take millions of years to make. That seems to be proof by counterexample that not &#60;i&#62;all&#60;/i&#62; biofuels are useless. But at doublerebel says, the headline should really be "we should not grow plants for biofuel production". Which is not the same thing at all.
评论 #4823213 未加载
评论 #4822846 未加载
ChuckMcM超过 12 年前
I like how everyone comes into this debate with a different concept of what bio-fuels "do."<p>If you think about supplying the worlds energy needs using bio-fuel it is a non-starter, and that is basically what the editorial says. Converting incident sunlight into useful energy through existing photo synthesis processes is inefficient and does a great harm in terms of food production.<p>If you think of it as a way of converting sunlight into something that pre-existing infrastructure can use (fuels) that can be justified on the expense of swapping out the existing infrastructure.<p>Big picture -&#62; move everything to electricity and gas, since those two forms of energy are pretty readily convertible into the other forms we need.<p>Intermediate points -&#62; you need a petroleum fuel cycle while you're converting everything else.
mayneack超过 12 年前
There are different types of biofuel research. He seems to ignore the whole sector that is bioengineering the plants to solve these problems. One example that comes to mind (and I can't find a link to on my phone) involves changing the color of the leaf to absorb more light.<p><a href="http://biomassmagazine.com/articles/7341/cutting-edge-bioenergy-projects-earn-arpa-e-funding" rel="nofollow">http://biomassmagazine.com/articles/7341/cutting-edge-bioene...</a>
alokv28超过 12 年前
Here's a direct link to Michel's article that the blog post pulls quotes from.<p><a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201200218/pdf" rel="nofollow">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201200218/pd...</a>
评论 #4823829 未加载
guscost超过 12 年前
We're actually <i>burning</i> edible plants. Isn't it obvious?
评论 #4822910 未加载
评论 #4822967 未加载
评论 #4823036 未加载
评论 #4823308 未加载
评论 #4823975 未加载
anovikov超过 12 年前
Biofuels are of course nonsense from energy efficiency standpoint. Biogas is produced for a different purpose: it results in storable energy, which is theoretically supposed to balance energy produced by intermittent sources. Overally, biofuels are not supposed to be energy-efficient or net energy positive. If we can one day produce oil from nothing spending 2x the energy the resulting oil will contain it will be a great achievement, even a holy grail of all renewable energy work: storable, high density renewable energy good for peak loads and for transport (worst case: airplanes).
评论 #4823684 未加载
stcredzero超过 12 年前
Plant based biofuels are only problematic if you imagine replacing all transportation energy needs with them. Cut that out! Develop all technologies and let the market decide. I predict that there will be specialist niche applications for biofuels, and that most of transportation will be electric. For a cheap, robust means of storing lots of energy, it's really hard to compete with a metal tank of hydrocarbon fuel, but this doesn't doom us to run everything this way.
JoeAltmaier超过 12 年前
Headline: oil industry experts slam alternative energy.<p>Alternatives have only just begun being explored. Innovation in this area are very likely to surprise that chemist. E.g. steam from room-temperature water posted on HN today: <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4824205" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4824205</a><p>Bioengineered plants may work any way we can imagine, not just the way an oil-industry chemist imagines.
SpikeDad超过 12 年前
Irrelevant. If if a renewable source is 10x less efficient than non-renewable sources, the key here is NON-RENEWABLE. We've got to take the pressure off of petroleum based fuels until such time as we come up with some alternative system - hydrogen, high-capacity battery storage, etc.<p>PS. Adding Nobel Prize to someone's argument doesn't have the gravitas as perhaps it once had. I think Linus Pauling and vitamin C diminished that.
readymade超过 12 年前
Way to link to a Climate Change denial blog, HN.
siculars超过 12 年前
Elon Musk addresses this around 1hr 17min here <a href="http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/videos/view/211" rel="nofollow">http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/videos/view/211</a>
alberthartman超过 12 年前
Damn you math! PV works just fine. Too bad we don't have a high density mobile energy storage method to compare to liquid oil. When that happens, sub power will rule all.
jpalomaki超过 12 年前
Biofuels are also being produced from waste: <a href="http://www.st1.eu/index.php?id=2876" rel="nofollow">http://www.st1.eu/index.php?id=2876</a>
tehwalrus超过 12 年前
I thought we knew this already.
Angostura超过 12 年前
Damn, better jettison my wood burning stove.