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Instagram's official response

334 点作者 kurtvarner超过 12 年前

63 条评论

rauljara超过 12 年前
I find this thread really fascinating. I have a hard time imagining a more better apology from Instagram. They accept responsibility, there isn't a trace of hostility towards any of the people who 'misinterpreted' their terms, they are upfront about needing to make money, and they communicate (or attempt to) that they were never in favor of any of those kind of downright villainous things it seemed like they were in favor of. If anyone in the masses of angry Instagram users could be appeased by words, this is probably about as good as you could do at appeasing them.<p>However, judging from the responses here, a lot of Instagram users are unappeasable, and I don't think unreasonably. Their motives are basically unknowable by anyone not in their inner circle, so all we have to go on is their actions and their words. If your internal heuristics say that when it looks like a social media company is trying to steal your personal data/intellectual property, they probably are and will then lie about it after the fact... well, that seems like a reasonable heuristic to have this day and age. I'm not sure I buy into it unreservedly, but I wouldn't try to convince anyone they're wrong about it, either.<p>This whole event shows me (or at least, reminds me) that there are limits to what words can fix.
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jonknee超过 12 年前
Take it with a grain of salt. They tried to sneak this by and it blew up in their faces.<p>While under oath, Kevin Systrom: “No, we never received any offers,”<p>Reality, Instagram had an offer from Twitter and Kevin Systrom had direct knowledge.<p><a href="http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/disruptions-instagram-testimony-doesnt-add-up-2/" rel="nofollow">http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/disruptions-instagr...</a><p>That said, at least it looks like they're going to tweak the TOS change in favor of their users. But with Facebook pulling the reigns, we all know where this will end.
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shabble超过 12 年前
There's something I can't quite put my finger on, that makes this response seem a bit forced and insincere.<p>"Legal documents are easy to misinterpret. So I’d like to address specific concerns we’ve heard from everyone"<p>My understanding is that legal documents are written precisely to be as hard to misinterpret as possible. They say exactly what they mean, and (subject to possible judicial interpretation) mean exactly what they say.<p>I'm sure the average layperson might misunderstand or not realise the consequences or scope of a particular term, but as I understand it, the original concerns appear to have been raised by an EFF lawyer[1] who presumably does have a reasonable grasp of the matter.<p>That sets the tone for the piece.<p>"Instead it was interpreted by many that we were going to sell your photos to others without any compensation. This is not true and it is our mistake that this language is confusing. To be clear: it is not our intention to sell your photos."<p>We are selling a package. Which might include some photos and some other advertising or whatever services, juicy user data, etc, but we're definitely not selling the photos. Only the package thing.<p>"Ownership Rights: Instagram users own their content and Instagram does not claim any ownership rights over your photos."<p>My understanding is that this is irrelevant to everything except maybe attribution; they're granting themselves sufficient rights to transfer &#38; sub-licence the works, which is essentially everything necessary to sell/use/licence a copy. In fact, the existence of a perpetual royalty-free transferable/re-licenceable licence will significantly devalue the content, if the actual owner wanted to sell or exclusively licence the content.<p>Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But it definitely feels like the Non-Apology-Apology "We're truly sorry that you feel upset about how we're trying to shaft you good &#38; hard."<p>[1] mentioned in <a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57559710-38/instagram-says-it-now-has-the-right-to-sell-your-photos/" rel="nofollow">http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57559710-38/instagram-says...</a> as Kurt Opsahl[2]<p>[2] <a href="https://www.eff.org/about/staff/kurt-opsahl" rel="nofollow">https://www.eff.org/about/staff/kurt-opsahl</a>
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suprgeek超过 12 年前
There are several variations of "Our real intention is....", "we are aiming for...." in this post. Instagram users really need to realize that "Actual TOS agreement" trumps a thousand "our real intention...." blog posts.<p>Plus as other posters have pointed out there are some pretty clear giveaways in the Phrasing of some of the denials. In the very first paragraph is " Since making these changes, we’ve heard loud and clear that many users are confused and upset about what the changes mean...." Basically saying that our changes were not bad it is the users that are confused.<p>If you have not already --- ABANDON SHIP
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Mystalic超过 12 年前
I don't think Instagram/Systrom had any intention to sell user photos or do anything as drastic as the blogosphere made its TOS changes sound.<p>It did the right thing responding so quickly to user feedback. Hopefully it'll result in a TOS that lets Instagram monetize without infringing on the privacy of its users.
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davewiner超过 12 年前
They want to use your pictures to sell products to your friends. Say you take a picture of your friends at Domino's Pizza. They can show that picture to your friends and say "Look this guy who you know loves our pizza. Come try it out." Now you may not mind making an endorsement. But with this plan they don't have to ask you for permission. They can just do it.<p>And if you turn out to be a hit they can use it to sell the pizza to everyone not just your friends.<p>And if you're really a hit, they can use it to sell underwear. Or adult diapers. Or contraceptives. Or whatever you might not like them to use your imagery to sell.
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comice超过 12 年前
What they claim their intentions were is unimportant.<p>They were granting themselves irrevokable rights to do things people didn't ever want them to be able to do.
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AlexMuir超过 12 年前
This is a completely different style of incident response than parent company Facebook's. I much prefer this (relatively) straight up approach, although I'll admit it's more likely to come back and bite them in the arse a few years down the line.
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newishuser超过 12 年前
As a non lawyer who likes to pretend he knows what he's talking about, I say: "Lovely, now let's get that in writing."
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danso超过 12 年前
&#62;&#62; The language we proposed also raised question about whether your photos can be part of an advertisement. <i>We do not have plans for anything like this and because of that we’re going to remove the language that raised the question</i>. Our main goal is to avoid things like advertising banners you see in other apps that would hurt the Instagram user experience. Instead, we want to create meaningful ways to help you discover new and interesting accounts and content while building a self-sustaining business at the same time. ---- &#60;&#60;&#60;<p>.<p>This whole time, I was thinking, "whatever they do, they won't back away from this language...why else would they drop a bombshell if they weren't willing to suffer the blowback"...And it turns out, it was just some optional path they were considering and thought, "what the hell, let's just put in there for now, no biggie"<p>???<p>Is that seriously the mindset of a billion dollar company? All I can imagine is:<p>1) They are lying<p>2) They really thought people wouldn't read the TOS (hasn't Facebook learned by now that <i>someone</i> will read it and make a big deal about troubling language?)<p>3) They are an incredibly careless company who will make other "mistakes" that could harm users.<p>I had been mostly ambivalent about this whole thing, as I don't maintain a very active Instagram account. But now I might just put in the energy to delete my account.
jburwell超过 12 年前
There seems to be a disconnect between the TOS and this statement. If/when it comes down to brass tacks, a legal agreement between the Instagram and its users trumps a blog post about intentions. Talk is cheap -- codify the intentions expressed in the blog post in a TOS revision before the current changes take effect.
hexis超过 12 年前
"To be clear: it is not our intention to sell your photos."<p>That is less clear than saying "We will not sell your photos." It's either a knowingly slippery statement, or they forgot how to not be slippery.
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stfu超过 12 年前
<i>One of the main reasons these documents don’t take effect immediately, but instead 30 days from now, is that we wanted to make sure you had an opportunity to raise any concerns.</i><p>I see, they learned quite a bit from politicians. First push for the extremes, and if you get buried by bad press, produce a watered-down compromise.<p>Still, it is a surprisingly fair statement from a Facebook owned company.
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gyardley超过 12 年前
<i>The language we proposed also raised question about whether your photos can be part of an advertisement. We do not have plans for anything like this and because of that we’re going to remove the language that raised the question.</i><p>Interesting use of the present tense in the second sentence, in an "I am not having an affair with that woman" sort of way.
javajosh超过 12 年前
Does anyone else find the phrasing "Legal documents are easy to misinterpret. So I’d like to address specific concerns we’ve heard from everyone..." to be eerily similar to Dr. Breen's PSAs in the beginning of Half-Life 2?<p>Dr. Breen: "Let me read a letter I recently received. 'Dear Dr. Breen. Why has the Combine seen fit to suppress our reproductive cycle? Sincerely, A Concerned Citizen.' Thank you for writing, Concerned. Of course your question touches on one of the basic biological impulses, with all its associated hopes and fears for the future of the species. I also detect some unspoken questions. Do our benefactors really know what's best for us? What gives them the right to make this kind of decision for mankind? Will they ever deactivate the suppression field and let us breed again? Allow me to address the anxieties underlying your concerns, rather than try to answer every possible question you might have left unvoiced."
aculver超过 12 年前
I don't want "innovative advertising that feels appropriate on Instagram" any more than I want what Facebook has done with advertising in my timeline. Please just give me an option to pay a monthly fee to turn all that garbage off.
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itsprofitbaron超过 12 年前
I posted something similar on here[1] about how Instagram cannot sell its users photos and what they're <i>actually</i> doing is trying to monetize similar to how Facebook does Sponsored Posts.<p>Instagram's terms of service stated that was their intentions:<p><pre><code> To help us deliver interesting paid or sponsored content or promotions, you agree that a business or other entity may pay us to display your username, likeness, photos (along with any associated metadata), and/or actions you take, in connection with paid or sponsored content or promotions, without any compensation to you. </code></pre> And "Section 106: Exclusive rights in copyrighted works aka. 17 U.S.C. § 106"[3] essentially states Instagram <i>cannot</i> sell its users photos and it <i>cannot</i> use its users photos and alter them in any meaningful way.<p>The problem was how they communicated the change and they've admitted that too[2] although they've started to fix this with this blogpost and will continue to communicate this.<p>[1] <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4939650" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4939650</a><p>[2] <a href="https://twitter.com/instagram/status/281133360833773568" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/instagram/status/281133360833773568</a><p>[3] <a href="http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html</a>
ryguytilidie超过 12 年前
At my last job, our Director of Operations was responsible for rewriting the company rulebook/handbook. People didn't really know why, since we were a small company and I don't think anyone had ever read the handbook. Obviously, as you can imagine from someone with the title of Director of Operations, no one was asked for input.<p>A few weeks later, we;re all given copies of the handbook and ordered to sign it. People read the handbook and it was very clear that the new rules were not in line with company culture at all. No drinking in the office when we had multiple beer fridges, stuff about how you can be fired with less notice, etc. Of course, no one in their right mind would agree to an amended rulebook while at a company, especially when they could freely move to another startup.<p>The thing that amazed me most though, was in our next company meeting, people kept asking the Director of Operations about the rulebook and he finally snapped to say "Look, I made some changes, if you dont like them, its just really not a big deal, I don't think the rulebook actually means anything anyway".<p>Okay so lets recap. Our director of operations spent months writing a "meaningless" document? Doubtful. If so, why WRITE the document at all? This is the parallel I see here. There was no reason whatsoever to change the terms, yet they had some presumably high priced lawyers rewrite them. Why would they do this? Do we really believe they spent time an effort updating these terms for no reason? To me, this reads as some SERIOUS backpedaling and I would be shocked if they actually didn't intend to use data in the exact way people were upset they would.
kurtvarner超过 12 年前
Great, now all the bitching can change to be about their plans to advertise. The sense of entitlement that people have is getting ridiculous. Why do you <i>deserve</i> an absolutely free service?
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blhack超过 12 年前
What an absolute shock! Instagram hasn't actually decided to cut off their own hands!
rjd超过 12 年前
To late they lost my trust when facebook brought them, and even rumours of facebook behaviour was enough to walk away.<p>My account is now gone, same with atleast a dozen people I've talked to in the last day or so. I'd hazard a guess the quick response has been in response to sudden surge in accounts deleted.
ianstallings超过 12 年前
What blows my mind about this whole mess is how quickly this community has gone off on some witch hunt. Just read the comments. This is apparently what you have to look forward to if your startup is successful and you eventually try to monetize. Good luck everyone.
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fernly超过 12 年前
Exactly what part of "you agree that a business or other entity may pay us to display your ... photos (along with any associated metadata), ... without any compensation to you" is "confusing"?<p>It is not complicated legalese; on the contrary it is admirably terse and lucid English. The reason that "it was interpreted by many that we were going to sell your photos to others without any compensation" is because that is EXACTLY what it says they will do.<p>Unambiguous. Not confusing. What's confusing is that Kevin Systrom now claims it does not say what it very clearly and unambiguously says.
clarky07超过 12 年前
&#60;rant&#62; I really have no idea what people are complaining about. What are you putting in your Instagram photos? It's a cool service that lets you share pictures with friends. What is it that you think your pictures are worth?<p>When you sign up for a free service, you have to know that you are the product. PERIOD. Don't sign up for free services if you don't want to be the product. Go pay flickr. They will take your money. Stop bitching about free services adding ads so that they can keep the lights on and keep offering your free service. &#60;/rant&#62;
richardjs超过 12 年前
<i>Legal documents are easy to misinterpret.</i><p>It's a shame this is the case. Isn't it part of the point of legal documents to be <i>hard</i> to misinterpret? Isn't that supposed to be why they use such stiff language?
darushimo超过 12 年前
It's difficult to believe that the language of the ToS communicates things they 'don't intend', Especially following this potential Twitter-acquisition / possible perjury situation.<p>Also, lets not forget that this is not a startup talking to us anymore--this is a Facebook-owned company. I would expect Facebook to take full advantage of their intentionally vague legal wording.<p>Although with that said, they don't need to stop the bleeding as much as shut up the major negative press about it, and this statement will probably do that.
tripzilch超过 12 年前
&#62; Legal documents are easy to misinterpret.<p>Actually the reason legal documents are written in a quirky funny dialect is to make them <i>less</i> ambiguous, not more so. If they are, whoever's written them is doing it wrong.<p>In today's social environment, the way people are made to feel like customers/users, only to later be sold as <i>product</i>, with little regard to privacy and/or control over their data and profile, isn't it funny how people are starting to assume the worst?<p>In all fairness, except for that bad start, later on you write the confusing language <i>was</i> your mistake, so you probably meant to say "Legal documents are hard to write, especially when people actually read them".<p>&#62; Ownership Rights Instagram users own their content and Instagram does not claim any ownership rights over your photos.<p>Um, yeah. What's "Ownership Rights"? It's not a legal term. Yet you capitalized and bolded the term. I'm sure you didn't mean to say "Copyrights" because you know what those are very well and take great care to not mention them. Also you can't have meant "Personality Rights" because they're generally non-transferable.<p>On the other hand, at least you acknowledged the public's reaction. And rather quickly, at that. That's good.<p>You also say you're listening and will improve the wording of the TOS. How that will turn out remains to be seen, when it happens. If so, I hope you'll excuse my skepticism.
reasondiscourse超过 12 年前
Another way to approach this might be to ask yourself specifically what uses you as a user do not want Instagram to pursue with your photos. Then look at the TOS and assess whether the TOS give you any protection against those uses. If the TOS do not protect against those uses then you can tell Instagram directly via feedback what you do not want them to do with your photos. It is easier to amend the TOS by adding specific, unambiguous restrictions on certain uses than it is to try to define the full scope of the permissions to users using random examples.<p>To restate this another way: Instead of trying to imagine everything Instagram might be permitted to do under the TOS, imagine what you as a user do not want them to do, and then ask for explicit restrictions on those uses.
wbharding超过 12 年前
What the blogosphere seemed to miss when getting all crazy about Instagram selling their pictures to businesses for advertising: what business in their right mind would want the bad press that would go along with exploiting Instagram users? The first time a business used a user's picture without their knowledge, the Internet would go crazy with rage, and rightfully so. It was never going to work that way, because businesses wouldn't want to be part of that game any more than the users would.<p>The FUD that CNet was able to perpetrate far outweighs any reasonable outcome that I can foresee. For this reason, I take Kevin at his word: both that they aren't going to do stupidly publish user pics on the side of buses, and that they will learn from this blunder.
level09超过 12 年前
I guess you still need to work on your language, Can't you just use clear sentences with straight meanings ? e.g. &#62; we respect that your photos are your photos. Period wouldn't it be better to just say "we are not going to use your photos without your permission ? "
uptown超过 12 年前
It's odd. The vast majority of Instagram users seem to leave their accounts open to the public - more so that most photo-sharing services I've used in the past. Instagram presumably has business relationships with all sorts of entities. And Instagram has APIs allowing users to access the data exposed by these public galleries. It seems the pieces are already in place for a 3rd party to enter into a business relationship with Instagram to pay for access to the data contained in their users photos. Why were the new terms even necessary?
dntbrme超过 12 年前
Why don't they just offer to share some of the profit of selling/using the photos? I think this would gain more users who would not mind being in promotional post, as long as they get a cut.
jmgrimes超过 12 年前
I think that a possible positive side effect of all this is that customers might start realising that they actually would rather pay for web-based software.
piyush_soni超过 12 年前
Sorry. The damage has already been done, and we clearly hear your intentions, instagram. I deleted my account and don't plan on joining back.
onedev超过 12 年前
All of you a pathetic. Along with the blogosphere.
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timkly超过 12 年前
<i>Let’s say a business wanted to promote their account to gain more followers and Instagram was able to feature them in some way.</i><p>Isn't this just exactly how facebook fooled the world? You pay x to gain y followers and when they have bleed that river dry, they roll out another update that requires you to pay z if you want your posts to show up in their feed?
hoi超过 12 年前
Seems to me this is a test. Push the updated terms of service out, if no-one complains, or if there is only minimal response then cool, it's acceptable by the users. If complainst come around, mitigate that risk by issuing an apology afterwards. As the phrase goes - " Do What You Think Is Right &#38; Apologize Later "
babesh超过 12 年前
The more interesting question is what is Instagram planning to do that caused this change in terms of service. I would bet that they are going to group photos together that show off a product or to attach advertising around your photos based on location or what the photo shows. I think that they are doing this soon.
tobyjsullivan超过 12 年前
I like this response. Terms of Service often need to change over time and, as of late, the Internet seems to have made a game out of ripping the changes to shreds when put forward by a known brand.<p>I'm looking forward to seeing how companies handle ToS changes moving forward. Is there a way to avoid the backlash altogether?
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jlgray超过 12 年前
If they had said we're setting up a market to sell Instagram photos. You can opt-in any of your photos, we'll take a cut for running the service, and you get the rest. The problem would be filtering out the junk, not getting people to sell their cat pictures.
thekevinjones超过 12 年前
For those that would still like to easily move their Instagram images to Flickr, without exporting to a zip then reimporting,we built a small webapp that will allow you to do so only a few clicks.<p><a href="http://freethephotos.com" rel="nofollow">http://freethephotos.com</a>
nemof超过 12 年前
A little bit of balance for the pitchforks crowd:<p><a href="http://www.theverge.com/2012/12/18/3780158/instagrams-new-terms-of-service-what-they-really-mean" rel="nofollow">http://www.theverge.com/2012/12/18/3780158/instagrams-new-te...</a><p>This story is giving me a headache.
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bhashkarsharma超过 12 年前
Is it just me who feels that it is just a re-run of the classic 'Zuck' way of doing things: Make mistake and apologize when it blows up? What's happening inside the company is any outsider's guess, but I definitely don't feel reassured.
alecdibble超过 12 年前
Hopefully the take-away is an explanation would have been helpful when the ToS was changed. Everyone was given limited information and they interpreted it how they could.<p>Maybe sites will think about this next time they quietly changed their ToS.
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DigitalSea超过 12 年前
I am happy with this apology. Everyone loves to hate on something, once one person starts hating others join in the mob mentality against someone or an entity continues until it gets to the point where the arguments have lost sight of what they were originally arguing about. What kind of apology were people expecting? An apology using animated GIF's and infographics?<p>Considering the photo quality of Instagram photos is extremely questionable, are people really upset that a photo of the nicoise salad they had could be used in an ad for for promotional purposes? Please. 99.9% of the photos on Instagram wouldn't be fit for advertising considering they're most shots of insecure teenagers taking photos in the mirror and the rest pictures of food.<p>Calm down.
nikunjk超过 12 年前
Kevin Systrom is the man. To be acquired, be part of a public company and still respond quickly, succinctly and effectively their monetization plan is something a lot of companies can learn from.
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davidcollantes超过 12 年前
For me, that's too late. Flickr mobile app is getting better, using it.
gkanai超过 12 年前
I deleted my Instagram account and won't be going back. Flickr's new mobile apps and their much more user-friendly TOS is where was before Instagram and where I want to be in the future.
ianstallings超过 12 年前
Not like it will matter. The witch hunt has started and nothing can disperse an angry mob. Except free pie of course.
ck2超过 12 年前
I still don't get why instagram is evil and facebook is fine.<p>Is it because instagram is more disposable/replaceable to people?
Splendor超过 12 年前
Too late. I already deleted my account.
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li-ch超过 12 年前
I don't trust the legal opinions from the sales and marketing people. I'll read the ToS myself.
lnanek2超过 12 年前
tumblr seems to be doing quite well just letting users promote their posts. instagram could be moving that direction, not just for businesses. i guess they have facebook doing it from the business side, though, so it is natural for them
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julienmarie超过 12 年前
"Legal documents are easy to misinterpret." =&#62; Isn't their goal the opposite ?
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aptwebapps超过 12 年前
The proof is in the pudding. Let's see the new TOS.
Tloewald超过 12 年前
And we have always been at war with Eastasia.
mikebonnell超过 12 年前
Decent response, but I remain unconvinced.
patrickgzill超过 12 年前
imgur.com is something like $24 a year, and AFAIK they don't claim any ownership on your photos...
thekevan超过 12 年前
tl;rd: We're not selling your pictures, just using them for our own ads.
lalwat超过 12 年前
Still out.
drivebyacct2超过 12 年前
When you're getting into bed with Facebook, writing poor terms of service in the same week that you lie about acquisition offers is a pretty damn good way of souring the well. If they revise the ToS and remove the offending sections, good, but for some, it will already be too late.
ygmelnikova超过 12 年前
These mistakes are so common among billion dollar corporations. Can they not anticipate these sort of reactions? Do they get 'Larry' down in legal to quickly write something up and then post it without another thought?
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DRMAN超过 12 年前
It's time to say goodbye to both Instagram and facebook and say hello to iphoto!