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Google, Facebook, Microsoft And Apple Deny Participation In NSA PRISM

188 点作者 TheFullStack将近 12 年前

10 条评论

downandout将近 12 年前
These denials have been refuted by the Director of National Intelligence.<p><a href="http://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/191-press-releases-2013/869-dni-statement-on-activities-authorized-under-section-702-of-fisa" rel="nofollow">http://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/191-pre...</a><p><a href="http://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/191-press-releases-2013/868-dni-statement-on-recent-unauthorized-disclosures-of-classified-information" rel="nofollow">http://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/191-pre...</a><p>The program exists. Each and every company lied. They may have been Bill Clinton-esque, "legally accurate" lies, but make no mistake: they intentionally lied.
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adventured将近 12 年前
This is pretty simple: if they got to AT&#38;T and Verizon, it's crazy to think they wouldn't get Google / Microsoft / Facebook / Apple.<p>Apple has recently been the world's largest company, and has nearly half the US smart phone market.<p>Microsoft still has a practical monopoly in desktop operating systems (and combined with Apple they cover 98% or so of the market). Also, Microsoft was already leashed by the Feds via anti-trust. Once you're under their heel, there's no going back.<p>Google, well, comeon... they're a data wet dream. Ditto Facebook. One has a near monopoly in search, and develops the most popular mobile operating system (reaching almost a billion users), the other has a monopoly in social (particularly the kind of social where Joe Smith uses it every day).<p>For all intents and purposes, once a company gets as big as these guys, they become government/corporate entities, no longer strictly corporate in nature. Much like Boeing or Bank of America or GE or Exxon. The intermingling is impossible to avoid at their size. And in fact, the Feds would never allow you to remain very distant at such size, too many lobbyists and too much money and power is in play.<p>And while we're at it, let's remember the close ties to the Obama Administration that some of these companies enjoy. Hardly far-fetched to imagine them cooperating with continuously expanding espionage programs, particularly even more so when they like the administration in power (I would say it's plausible even that companies would be less likely to fight if they thought highly of an administration; personal political bias clouding judgment, how many have fallen for the Obama campaign charm?).
dragonwriter将近 12 年前
These are all denials of things around the periphery of the PRISM issue like inferred details of the mechanisms by which the data is gathered, and none of them are denials of the core of what supposedly is happening under PRISM in terms of the scope of user data that has been collected by the NSA.<p>If you look at the "denials", they all only deny one or more of the following things: 1. That the government has direct access to the providers systems, 2. That customer information is provided to the government outside of what the provider believes is legally required, 3. That customer information is turned over to the government without a court order.<p>Lets start with the "direct access" piece, because this appears to be a common inference as to how the broad scope of information at issue is provided to the government, but the "direct access" characterization seems to be at odds with the slide titled "PRISM Collection Details" in the presentation that is the source of the accusations. That slide strongly suggests that there is a distinct <i>collection</i> of data that is available for NSA users, varying in content by provider.<p>The idea that it is a "voluntary program" or one outside of a process dependent on court orders isn't inconsistent with anything that has been made public from the source documents, but it doesn't seem to be demanded by them, either. What is clear from the documents (assuming their authenticity and accuracy) and the direct characterizations of them (rather than what are clearly inferences and not direct characterizations) provided in the coverage is that different providers were brought into the program at different times, and that the program involves some form of "cooperation" by the providers -- but none of that implies that it is voluntary or doesn't involve court orders of some kind (perhaps, specifically, FISA warrants)-- and that from each provider the collection of data is limited to a provider-specific list of particular kinds of data, and that the data is provided to the NSA directly from the companies servers (but the "direct access" rather than direct provision thing appears to be an inference from the direct provision, rather than itself a direct characterization.)<p>In fact, the recently revealed broad Verizon FISA warrant suggests exactly how this could have been achieved with FISA warrants -- instead of being dates on which a negotiated agreement was reached with each provider, the dates the providers are listed as being brought into the program could be the dates on which a broad FISA warrant (similar to the Verizon one, but specifying different data) was issued mandating collection of specified data from the specified provider. The providers could then <i>honestly</i> deny participation in a voluntary program, or providing direct access to their servers, or providing customer information without a court order -- they could even honestly <i>not</i> know that the FISA warrant they were served was part of a broader program directed at wide range of providers. Such a warrant could specify directly (or make timeliness requirements that make this the only way to comply) that the data be provided by being <i>fed</i> to the NSA from the companies servers, without providing the NSA <i>access</i> to the servers.<p>IOW, <i>every</i> <i>word</i> of the denials could be literally true, with the substance of the story -- that the NSA is being fed the vast array of customer data described in the stories about PRISM and can access data from that collection freely at will -- being true at the same time, the only things that are in conflict between the story and the denials are peripheral inferences and implications about the mechanism that appear in the story (such as "direct access" or the absence of court orders or other compulsory process.)
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whiddershins将近 12 年前
So the Washington Post "leak" was disinformation to distract everyone from the Verizon phone records story?<p>Karl Rove was alleged to have done something similar during one of Bush's campaigns: Leak a false version of a true story (I believe it was his draft avoidance, but I can't remember ...) and then provide documentation which discredits the inaccurate version, so no publication was willing to cover the story later, regardless of facts.<p>Is that what's going on here?
sixothree将近 12 年前
Doesn't FISA order them to not disclose such practices?
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artpop将近 12 年前
The terseness of each of these all but confirms it.
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mallrs将近 12 年前
Everybody is reading way too much into this. They were all issued &quot;gag orders&quot; which say &quot;You will never disclose in any such way the existence of this operation&quot;. These orders also specify &quot;If this operation is ever leaked into to public awareness you will outright deny knowledge and participation of said operation&quot;.<p>They are legally forced to do this.
jw_将近 12 年前
Well, I suppose that settles that.
mariusz331将近 12 年前
they are awfully specific about what they don't do.<p>"direct access"...
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1morepassword将近 12 年前
No, there's really nothing suspicious about the almost instant complete mass denial.<p>It sometimes takes <i>months</i> for these companies to come up with a full public statement on any privacy scandal. The process of getting hold of the people with enough clearance to be able to deny alone takes time. Let alone ensure that the statement is approved by senior management and legal.<p>Usually the best statement you can get within 24 hours is "we're taking these allegations very seriously and are looking into it".<p>This very much feels like a scripted response to an anticipated scenario.
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