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FISA Court Rejects Catch-22 Secrecy Argument in FOIA Case

222 点作者 Titanous将近 12 年前

10 条评论

adventured将近 12 年前
The EFF has been carrying an immense amount of weight throughout all of this. I'm not sure I can name another organization that has done so much. Their budget desperately needs to be expanded dramatically.
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acqq将近 12 年前
The relevant quote from the book written by Joseph Heller:<p><i>&quot;The girls were crying. &#x27;Did we do anything wrong?&#x27; they said. The men said no and pushed them away out the door with the ends of their clubs. &#x27;Then why are you chasing us out?&#x27; the girls said. &#x27;Catch-22,&#x27; the men said. &#x27;What right do you have?&#x27; the girls said. &#x27;Catch-22,&#x27; the men said. All they kept saying was &#x27;Catch-22, Catch-22.&#x27; What does it mean, Catch-22? What is Catch-22?&quot;<p>&quot;Didn&#x27;t they show it to you?&quot; Yossarian demanded, stamping about in anger and distress. &quot;Didn&#x27;t you even make them read it?&quot;<p>&quot;They don&#x27;t have to show us Catch-22,&quot; the old woman answered. &quot;The law says they don&#x27;t have to.&quot;<p>&quot;What law says they don&#x27;t have to?&quot;<p>&quot;Catch-22.&quot;</i>
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zmmmmm将近 12 年前
This is good to hear, but you have to really worry that there are people in the government who argued against it.<p>If the CIA wanted to do some <i>useful</i> domestic spying it would be far more beneficial to do their operations on these people. They are clearly a larger threat to democracy than any mere terrorist could ever be, and they are already INSIDE the system.
joshfraser将近 12 年前
&quot;Secret court&quot; and &quot;secret law&quot;<p>What an absurd concept and a sad place for the US to be.
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rayiner将近 12 年前
&quot;In fact, it took EFF longer to figure out how to physically file a motion with the FISC than it did for the FISC to dispatch with the DOJ&#x27;s arguments.&quot;
csense将近 12 年前
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.<p>This is obviously a problem for people who wish to be law-abiding citizens if the laws themselves are secret.<p>Having too many laws for a single individual to keep track of can be nearly as good as having secret laws, when it comes to keeping people ignorant of the law, and thus making it easy for the government to persecute anyone they don&#x27;t like by prosecuting them.<p>I read once about a defense attorney who played a game while riding along with a police officer. They would follow a car, and the policeman would win if he could point out a legitimate reason for which he could make a traffic stop, if he was so inclined.<p>The officer won every time, usually within a few blocks.<p>I saw a video [1] which noted that possession of a lobster can be illegal: &quot;It doesn&#x27;t matter if he&#x27;s dead or alive. It doesn&#x27;t matter if you killed it or it died of natural causes. It doesn&#x27;t even matter if you acted in self defense! Did you know that? Did you know it could be a federal offense to be in possession of a lobster? Raise your hand if you did not know that. [audience raises hands] There&#x27;s the problem!&quot;<p>I don&#x27;t think this situation is due to a conspiracy to take away our freedoms, on the principle that we needn&#x27;t ascribe malicious intent when mere laziness and incompetence will suffice. Basically the law is a codebase with lots of sometimes-circular dependencies, which isn&#x27;t refactored nearly aggressively enough, so the cruft accumulates. Taking into account that in the US the &quot;initial commit&quot; is hundreds of years old [3], there are ~50 forks, and it&#x27;s still a fast-moving target, it&#x27;s not surprising that the sheer amount of complexity is more than any one person can appreciate; even after decades of study and practice, AFAIK even the best professional lawyers are basically ignorant of the law in other specializations, and even within their own specialization they sometimes need teams of lawyers and paralegals poring over legal texts to find out exactly what the law says about their particular case.<p>[1] The quote occurs at about 6:55 [2] in <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc</a><p>[2] The entire video is witty and informative, and it&#x27;s something that everyone should watch at least once.<p>[3] Maybe it&#x27;s more like <i>thousands</i> of years old -- if you go back through English law, there are probably things that go back to the Norman conquest in 1066, or Roman Britain even earlier.
mtgx将近 12 年前
There can&#x27;t be a democracy with &quot;secret laws&quot;. I hope people will see that through whatever excuses the administration will try to launch next.
mpyne将近 12 年前
As well the FISA court should reject that argument.
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uptown将近 12 年前
So the fight is for public disclosure of a decision of which the outcome is already known?
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vaadu将近 12 年前
The ABA ought to threaten disbarment of any government lawyer that argues something so unamerican.