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Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

527 点作者 teawithcarl将近 12 年前

29 条评论

gruseom将近 12 年前
This is by far the most informative [edit: if speculative] article I&#x27;ve read on Snowden&#x27;s choice of Hong Kong, which has been the most puzzling detail of the whole story. If true, it explains a lot, not just about why he chose Hong Kong but also about his subsequent interview with the press there. Can HNers who know Hong Kong shed light on how plausible it is?<p>It&#x27;s striking how one obscure blog post can be more valuable than all the media speculation on this question (that I&#x27;ve seen) put together. That doesn&#x27;t make its interpretation true, of course. But the alternate explanation that was going through my head seems a bit movie-esque by comparison.
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skue将近 12 年前
There is another big reason why Snowden may have chosen HK. A few months ago the HK high court ruled that the process for applying for asylum needs overhaul, and until that happens all extradition proceedings for asylum seekers are on hold. So Snowden simply needs to apply for asylum in HK to significantly delay things:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.globalpost.com&#x2F;dispatch&#x2F;news&#x2F;regions&#x2F;asia-pacific&#x2F;china&#x2F;130610&#x2F;why-edward-snowden-hong-kong-extradition-asylum" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.globalpost.com&#x2F;dispatch&#x2F;news&#x2F;regions&#x2F;asia-pacific...</a><p>I haven&#x27;t seen much coverage of this in the US press, aside from Slate &amp; CSM. The rest of the media seems more interested in Snowden&#x27;s girlfriend and scholastic record instead (sigh).
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RoboTeddy将近 12 年前
The graphic in the article is downscaled -- here&#x27;s the direct link: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scmp.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;2013&#x2F;06&#x2F;14&#x2F;snowden-extradiction-web.jpg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scmp.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;2013&#x2F;06&#x2F;14&#x2F;snowden-...</a>
nikcub将近 12 年前
You can also sneak out of Hong Kong easily, and it is an hour ferry ride a to Macau or Guangzhou or a bus or taxi ride to Shenzen.<p>Hong Kong has very loose exit visa policies on western passports. You can jump on a plane to some destinations with your passport only being checked at checkin (which is of the ticket). It is very simple to get to any number of ~50 countries in the space of hours and not having your identity checked until you land.<p>Private banking in Hong Kong means he can have money sent to him and he can spend money without worrying about who finds out who supports him.<p>He is also likely to find work, since there is a lot of English speaking expat work in the country especially in the IT industry.<p>I&#x27;m unsure if he has a path to citizenship, a path to residency is easy but I think the only way he could swap his passport is if he works out an entire 4 or 5 year residency or go citizenship via asylum.
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steve19将近 12 年前
Somewhat disingenuous to suggest swapping sim cards to avoid being tracked. This myth is one that law enforcement love. They just track phones with IMEI numbers.
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Stupendous将近 12 年前
I live in Hong Kong too (about 20 minutes walk from the Mira where Snowden was allegedly staying), and his stated reasons of coming here due to the country&#x27;s commitment to free speech and political dissent are baffling and misguided. When compared to China, Hong Kong seems free but the reality is very different.<p>Start with the South China Morning Post, the main English language newspaper here which has been covering this story extensively. The current editor, Wang Xiangwei, joined in 2011, is a member of the Chinese People&#x27;s Political Consultative Congress, and has been criticized for self-censorship multiple times since taking over.<p>Then you have the political system here, where people can vote in local elections but not in the main election that actually decides the Chief Executive (President). The current CE, CY Leung, was dogged by accusations that he was a Communist Party member throughout the election period. These accusations were not without merit given his political history (appointed to a prominent committee at a young age, a position traditionally occupied by party members), and these issues have not died down since he&#x27;s taken office.<p>It makes no sense for Snowden to have come to HK for its political freedom. Neither is this city a hotbed for political dissent. The Occupy movement here was largely ineffective (there were often more homeless people than protestors at the camp), and power here is concentrated in the elite (HK has one of the highest Gini coefficients in the world).<p>He came here because here he can leverage China vs the US. Any talk of political freedom or appreciating the culture is pure fluff.
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jsnk将近 12 年前
Fourth point about Hong Kong being under China probably has a significant effect that public cannot know about to full extent.<p>It&#x27;s not a outright conspiracy to believe that there&#x27;s a largely hidden but real power struggle between US and China. China probably likes the fact that Snowden has brought NSA and US government into public scrutiny and they are probably plotting a way to make the best out of it.
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STRML将近 12 年前
I live in Hong Kong, and can verify that it is absolutely a technologist&#x27;s paradise and an extremely easy place to move around in.<p>Phones are incredibly cheap; the cheapest functional Android knockoff smartphones will run you about $50-80 (all prices in USD for simplicity), maybe less if you get it in Kowloon. &quot;Burner&quot;-style phones can be as low as $8. SIM cards are essentially free (usually about $8-10 deposit on the card) and minutes are as lower than $0.01 each[1]. Data is about $5&#x2F;GB prepaid. All cash, no credit cards, no checks. You don&#x27;t even have to give them your name.<p>Coverage is completely universal here because the density is absurd. It&#x27;s a cell phone carrier&#x27;s dream; one tower can potentially reach nearly a million people. Taxi drivers here regularly have half a dozen cell phones in their cars. One for personal use, one for work, one for less savory work... who knows, there is always a lot going on, especially in relation to gambling.<p>Additionally, the broadband is great (and cheap) - I regularly get as much as 250mbps or more to the US from my home connection. I can say with confidence that I browse US sites more quickly from here than I could from my home connection when I lived in the states. The ping is of course higher but it is not as bad as you&#x27;d think (150-180ms).<p>There are great technology centers like Cyberport[2] that will rent you a desk or tiny office with gigabit internet for very little money.<p>It is easy to disappear in HK because it is so dense. While housing is not cheap it is available and some landlords will take cash. Being white earns you stares here, it is well known that the Chinese suffer from the same problem we do; it is difficult to tell white people apart, much like we may find it difficult to tell some ethnic Chinese apart. I am speculating but it could be used to his advantage: with a hairstyle change and contact lenses it would be difficult for a US citizen to identify Snowden, going only on the news photos. It would be even harder for a foreigner. That is, if the novelty of seeing a young nerdy white man doesn&#x27;t arouse suspicion alone.<p>Members of the expat community have been setting up rallies for Snowden and they have been getting decent attendance. The South China Morning Post has been very favorable in their framing of his actions. I think the populace here is very sympathetic to his plight.<p>As for the legal system, I can&#x27;t comment; I just work here, man.<p>[1] Keep in mind, prices are in HKD - 1USD = 7.76 HKD. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;one2free.hkcsl.com&#x2F;jsp&#x2F;prepaid_sim_card&#x2F;o2f_local_prepaid_sim&#x2F;charges&#x2F;charges.jsp" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;one2free.hkcsl.com&#x2F;jsp&#x2F;prepaid_sim_card&#x2F;o2f_local_pre...</a><p>[2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cyberport.hk&#x2F;en" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cyberport.hk&#x2F;en</a>
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kragen将近 12 年前
Author says, &quot;Budding spies and others of a paranoid nature can buy a couple of those SIM cards to swap in and out of their (unlocked) phones for $10 in any 7-11, no registration, no questions asked (try doing that in India or Argentina!)&quot;<p>I don&#x27;t live in India, but I do live in Argentina, and there are guys selling SIM cards on the subway and outside the train stations for, I think, AR$5, which is about US$0.76. No registration, no questions asked. If you instead go to a cellphone store, not only do you need to register, but they want ID.<p>I suspect that India is porous enough that there are similar holes in whatever controls they have to require registration.<p>I don&#x27;t get 250Mbps in my house though; maybe 1Mbps to the US. And the murder rate is a little higher than in the US.
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tokenadult将近 12 年前
I think Snowden didn&#x27;t have a lot of choices of places to fly to from Hawaii, where he was last based.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5854562" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5854562</a><p>Some of the rationales for being in Hong Kong we see attributed to interview statements by him sound like statements by a person who knows a lot less about east Asia than he thinks he knows. In the six years that I lived in east Asia, all spent there after first learning the history, language, and culture of China thoroughly by university studies and independent reading and participation in foreign student clubs before going over, I grew quite tired of instant experts on Asia who can&#x27;t even speak any local language. Snowden made the move he could make when he decided to leave his employment at Booz Allen Hamilton, but it&#x27;s not clear that his move was &quot;brilliant&quot; or even very thought out at all.
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crazygringo将近 12 年前
I&#x27;m curious... is there anything currently preventing him from flying to a further country as well? I&#x27;m not aware of there being a warrant out for his arrest or anything yet... What would happen today if he just hopped on the next flight to Iceland or Ecuador or wherever else (or let&#x27;s just assume nonstop flights)?
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rdl将近 12 年前
I actually don&#x27;t think Hong Kong was a great choice, as it brings up the whole question of foreign intelligence service involvement. He absolutely should have picked a common law jurisdiction (like Hong Kong), and probably not US&#x2F;UK&#x2F;Canada, but NZ would have worked pretty well.<p>He&#x27;s not &quot;in hiding&quot; from the intelligence services. I suspect even second tier countries know where he is.
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rld将近 12 年前
&gt; Budding spies and others of a paranoid nature can buy a couple of those SIM cards to swap in and out of their (unlocked) phones for $10 in any 7-11, no registration, no questions asked (try doing that in India or Argentina!)<p>Argentine here, you can buy SIM cards literally everywhere. Vendors will even sell them to you on trains.
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intelliot将近 12 年前
Ron Paul has specifically mentioned two places as having more liberty (in certain ways) than the US: Switzerland and Hong Kong.
reiichiroh将近 12 年前
It&#x27;s strange the Falun Gong paper Epoch Times hasn&#x27;t written more about this case.
avn2109将近 12 年前
Is there any hard evidence that ES is actually in Hong Kong? It seems to be widely accepted that he is, though I&#x27;m not familiar with the evidence in favor of this claim.
vph将近 12 年前
Brilliant move, maybe, unless he was manipulated by the Chinese. It is very interesting that the allegation that the NSA has been hacking into Chinese systems came out at the time when the US and China are meeting and Obama is trying to admonish the Chinese on hacking.<p>It would be interesting to explore if Edward Snowden has any handler. And how exactly he chose Hong Kong and decided to reveal that the NSA has been hacking the Chinese.
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ericfong将近 12 年前
Born in Hong Kong. Personally don&#x27;t think Hong Kong is that safe and has such freedom. But may be good for his case. As China like to see him exists...
sandGorgon将近 12 年前
I dont get it - every one of those factors is present in India as well (with a few compromises on bandwidth I&#x27;ll admit).<p>If the article makes a case that in Hong Kong people <i>can</i> take to the streets, it so happens that they <i>did</i> in Delhi [1]. Hell, India has a superior record of amnesty than most other countries [2].<p>Plus, the tech work scene is undoubtedly better in India as well as .... um... not being 100% undemocratic.<p>I personally am of the opinion that one of the big reasons could be that the pay is potentially better in Hong Kong - especially for someone from Booz Allen.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.csmonitor.com&#x2F;Commentary&#x2F;Opinion&#x2F;2013&#x2F;0315&#x2F;Reactions-to-Steubenville-Ohio-and-India-gang-rapes-show-India-isn-t-so-backward" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.csmonitor.com&#x2F;Commentary&#x2F;Opinion&#x2F;2013&#x2F;0315&#x2F;Reacti...</a> [2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.unhcr.org&#x2F;50001ec69.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.unhcr.org&#x2F;50001ec69.html</a>
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Apocryphon将近 12 年前
I&#x27;ve been thinking of alternative destinations. New Zealand, home of exile Kim Dotcom, could work. But what about Sweden? Aren&#x27;t they very neutral? Or Switzerland, the nation that&#x27;s synonymous with neutrality?
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fspeech将近 12 年前
A warrant may never even be issued, since if he is arrested Hongkong police will be duty bound to turn over anything of national security interest to Beijing. Yeah it is a pretty sharp move.
gboone42将近 12 年前
This still doesn&#x27;t explain why he didn&#x27;t choose a country with no possibility of extradition like, uh, any of these: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Extradition_law_in_the_United_States#Countries_with_diplomatic_relations_but_no_extradition_treaty" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Extradition_law_in_the_United_S...</a><p>They may not be technological paradises, but it&#x27;s pretty hard (nearly impossible) to be extradited to the US from any of them.
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adventured将近 12 年前
&quot;Nobody stands to win by taking decisive action on Snowden, so my guess, based on years of living in Hong Kong, is that both Beijing and Hong Kong will avoid doing so, which heightens the possiblity of a long, long court process.&quot;<p>That depends on how badly the US wants him. If they want him badly enough, they&#x27;ll buy him from China with an offering big enough to create a winner. That would be trivial for the US to do - they could have Snowden back in a few days - but the price might be very high.
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dnr将近 12 年前
The question I&#x27;ve been wondering about is how he&#x27;ll get money to live on. Presumably it won&#x27;t be long before the US will freeze his bank accounts, if they haven&#x27;t already.<p>Has he set up offshore bank accounts in advance? Won&#x27;t they get frozen too?<p>Is he planning on working in HK? He probably doesn&#x27;t have a visa that allows working, and switching visas usually requires leaving the country. He&#x27;s too well-known now to work under the table.<p>Did he carry huge amounts of cash?
jcoder将近 12 年前
The commentary about swapping SIMs and fast &#x27;net puzzles me. If someone in Snowden&#x27;s position wants to avoid tracking, given the leaked information that is <i></i>the very reason<i></i> he is wanted, I would think the safest tactic is to eschew personal devices and &#x27;net usage entirely.
_k将近 12 年前
My guess is someone gave him advice on it because at first sight Hong Kong isn&#x27;t the most obvious choice at all. The infographic explains how it all works but if someone had asked me something like that, I wouldn&#x27;t even be able to answer it for my own country.
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frozenport将近 12 年前
Especially if he is a Chinese spy. Because bragging about Hong Kong freedom&#x27;s sounds like a cold war farce.
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spitx将近 12 年前
CBS&#x27; Bob Schieffer on Snowden&#x27;s junket:<p><pre><code> &quot;For one thing, I don&#x27;t remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences.&quot; &quot;That&#x27;s a little different than putting the nation&#x27;s security at risk and running away.&quot; &quot;What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he is smarter than the rest of us&quot; &quot;I don&#x27;t know what he is beyond that. But he is no hero. If he has a point — which I&#x27;m not sure he does — he would help his cause by voluntarily coming home to face the consequences.&quot; </code></pre> Source:<p>Schieffer to Snowden: Come home, face the consequences<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=IU5-r6mw6nQ" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=IU5-r6mw6nQ</a>
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dfc将近 12 年前
<i>Since we lack space and spend lots of time cooped up in small rooms, we have taken to the virtual world like ducks to water</i><p>Sounds awesome, you have to love a lack of options.