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Bitcoin Foundation Receives Cease And Desist Order From California

287 点作者 pelle将近 12 年前

19 条评论

mchusma将近 12 年前
It is worth pointing out that the state can put out Cease And Desist orders, and warnings on its website with no: 1) Evidence of wrongdoing 2) Communication with the accused 3) Method of reconciliation<p>I have my own personal example:<p>I received a letter ordering us to cease and desist from doing online notarization through California notaries. We were not doing so, so in effect we sent back a letter stating: &quot;We have not, and never have, conducted the activity you accuse us of.&quot; They basically responded saying &quot;ok, we agree that you haven&#x27;t done anything wrong but if you do anything we will prosecute you to the full extent of the law.&quot;<p>A few weeks later, they posted a &quot;consumer warning&quot; on their website saying that our company was in effect defrauding companies. Then, several other states copied that language without contact. I spoke with the government officials, I told them we were hurt by these baseless accusations, and they admitted that they really had no evidence of any wrongdoing. They basically said &quot;we are too busy to update the website right now but we will do so shortly.&quot;<p>After months of effort, I was able to one by one get most of these ultimately removed or reworded to a reasonable position. California was the last holdout. I basically began the process of suing them for massive damages and that ultimately was the only thing that was able to get them to change the wording.<p>So overall, my learning is that it genuinely scares me what government agencies can do without any evidence or judicial process. I would guess that the Bitcoin Foundation can respond with &quot;you are wrong, please provide evidence&quot; and get away with it for now.
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javajosh将近 12 年前
This C&amp;D demonstrates a rather alarming ignorance about Bitcoin, and an even more alarming tendency of modern enforcement agencies to halt any activity they don&#x27;t understand. It is an embarrassment to Paul T. Crayton and the State of California, and this &quot;default deny&quot; stance on innovation has just as much chilling effect as patent trolls.
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C1D将近 12 年前
For a long time I&#x27;ve admired Silicon Valley and America as a whole. It had been my dream to work and create a sartup there but after all of this. After seeing how free Americans really are I am now unsure about moving there. Although America has great opportunities for people like me, it doesn&#x27;t seem worth it especially since I&#x27;ve found out how some people get blacklisted for no reason.<p>PS. I hope I didn&#x27;t offend anyone
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codex将近 12 年前
State money transmission laws are very strict, requiring, among other things, a bond to be posted to protect the public.<p>Accoring to FinCEN, anyone selling units of a decentralised virtual currency to another person for real currency is a money transmitter--so, for example, if you operated a business exchanging U.S. dollars for Bitcoins, you must be licensed. I don&#x27;t know if the Bitcoin Foundation did this in California; perhaps there is some other wrinkle of state law at play here.
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pelle将近 12 年前
This is the equivalent of suing the American Bankers Association for a lack of a banking license.
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thinkcomp将近 12 年前
Most of the comments here are not particularly well-informed and should be ignored.<p>Yes, the Bitcoin Foundation (probably--I don&#x27;t know anything about them other than what I&#x27;ve read) isn&#x27;t strictly speaking a money transmitter. Yes, the California Department of Financial Institutions--which will cease to exist in 7 days when it gets merged into the California Department of Corporations--is totally ignorant of Bitcoin. But they know the law pretty well. Especially the one that they wrote. (See the name Robert Venchiarutti on the letter? He&#x27;s really the one behind it. The DFI lawyers just do what they&#x27;re told. They don&#x27;t even like the law. Venchiarutti actually wrote it, with the help of TMSRT&#x27;s lobbyists.)<p>That being said, the law to worry about here isn&#x27;t even the one cited. It is, as I&#x27;ve stated quite frequently, 18 U.S.C. § 1960 (<a href="http://www.plainsite.org/laws/index.html?id=14426" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.plainsite.org&#x2F;laws&#x2F;index.html?id=14426</a>). And that law says that you don&#x27;t have to be a money transmitter to get a letter such as the one received by the Bitcoin Foundation (<a href="http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/149335233?access_key=key-2lnhtenm4qb1mydngxac&amp;allow_share=false&amp;show_recommendations=false" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scribd.com&#x2F;fullscreen&#x2F;149335233?access_key=key-2l...</a>).<p>&quot;(a) Whoever knowingly conducts, controls, manages, supervises, directs, or owns all or part of an unlicensed money transmitting business...&quot;<p>The question then becomes whether the Bitcoin Foundation has any &quot;control&quot; or &quot;direction&quot; over its members and&#x2F;or affiliates, who are most clearly in violation of the law under section (b). These words are vague. It could be argued that it does.<p>There is an extremely high chance that people will go to jail over this whether people here think it&#x27;s stupid or not. It&#x27;s too bad no one took me seriously when I pointed out that the MTA was going to cause problems two years ago. I&#x27;ve been doing the industry&#x27;s dirty work ever since. It would have been a lot faster and easier with some help. Now we all have to hope that my constitutional challenge (<a href="http://www.plainsite.org/flashlight/case.html?id=716056" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.plainsite.org&#x2F;flashlight&#x2F;case.html?id=716056</a>) is going to save the day. And it might, but that day may be pretty far off in the future at the current rate.<p>Meanwhile, everyone should really be freaking out over AB 786 (<a href="http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140AB786" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;leginfo.legislature.ca.gov&#x2F;faces&#x2F;billNavClient.xhtml?...</a>), presently before the California Senate, which makes the MTA worse than it already is by giving Robert Venchiarutti even more power. I&#x27;ve been successful in removing the clause that created a new thought crime, but the rest is still pretty bad--unless you&#x27;re a payroll company. Amazing what lobbying can do.<p>If you want to help, click on the &quot;Comments to Author&quot; tab at the link above, register with the State of California, and tell Assemblyman Dickinson that the MTA should be repealed for all of the reasons I outline at <a href="https://s.facecash.com/legal/20130225.packetnumbered.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;s.facecash.com&#x2F;legal&#x2F;20130225.packetnumbered.pdf</a>: its overly broad scope, inability to sensibly regulate mobile technology, and unconstitutional nature. Money transmission takes place over the internet, which is in the domain of the federal government, not the states. See &#x2F;ALA v. Pataki&#x2F;, 969 F.Supp. 160 (1997), <a href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10174094889155823351" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;scholar.google.com&#x2F;scholar_case?case=1017409488915582...</a>. Also CC: Eileen Newhall &lt;eileen.newhall@sen.ca.gov&gt;, Mark Farouk &lt;mark.farouk@asm.ca.gov&gt;, Senator Jerry Hill &lt;jerry.hill@sen.ca.gov&gt;, Marc Hershman &lt;marc.hershman@sen.ca.gov&gt;, and BCC me: Aaron Greenspan &lt;aarong@thinkcomputer.com&gt;. If you live in California make sure to say where. Be polite.<p>Reading material:<p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5308013" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5308013</a>
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drcode将近 12 年前
I wonder if Mr. Teveia Barnes (correction: Mrs) is aware of her place in history: One of the brightest minds of our generation spent years of his life developing a technology that has essentially no other purpose but to make her C&amp;D (which we knew would come one day) completely ineffective.<p>(This is assuming Mrs. Teveia believes that the bitcoin foundation runs the servers that make up the bitcoin network, which I think is what this is all about.)
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jahewson将近 12 年前
&gt; Freedom of choice in currencies is probably the most important free speech issue of our time.<p>That sentence requires some serious mental gymnastics to agree with, which I find beyond me.
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tlrobinson将近 12 年前
It&#x27;s hard for me to reconcile how much I like living in California with how much I dislike the state and local governments here.
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lowglow将近 12 年前
Here is an interview we did at Techendo with Constance Choi of Payward (They are building <a href="http://kraken.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;kraken.com</a>) regarding the current legalities and regulatory landscape of virtual currencies: <a href="http://www.techendo.co/posts/techendo-episode-8-legalities-of-bitcoin-virtual-currency" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.techendo.co&#x2F;posts&#x2F;techendo-episode-8-legalities-o...</a>
Havoc将近 12 年前
Good luck with that. Nobody is putting that genie back into the bottle any time soon....
stevewilhelm将近 12 年前
The Bitcoin Foundation site [1] accepts donations via Bitcoin. Whose server are they using?<p>[1] <a href="https://bitcoinfoundation.org/donate" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoinfoundation.org&#x2F;donate</a>
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MichaelGG将近 12 年前
Even if they were a money transmitter, what authority does California have over a Washington based nonprofit?
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ISL将近 12 年前
Does the letter advance any evidence that the Foundation is acting as a money transmitter?
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MaggieL将近 12 年前
&quot;Sorry, you can&#x27;t do this until we figure out how to tax it. And it took us 18 years to figure out how to tax Amazon...&quot;
ciokan将近 12 年前
Seriously!? Did you really thought you can send and receive untraceable money without lovely U.S. putting an end to it?
tekromancr将近 12 年前
Wow, a government that fails to understand technology. Shocker, that.
bmmayer1将近 12 年前
The People&#x27;s Republic of California is at it again.
mrerrormessage将近 12 年前
Only the state of California may issue phony currency, apparently.