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Asiana Airlines Flight 214: A Pilot’s Perspective

271 点作者 sheri将近 12 年前

20 条评论

edw519将近 12 年前
Off topic but of significant hacker interest:<p><i>Also in 1985...the crash of a Delta Air Lines L-1011 in Dallas that killed 137.</i><p>There&#x27;s always been a lot of speculation over how IBM gave up an entire industry (the personal computer) to a seemingly insignificant start-up (Microsoft). One theory is that may not have happened if Don Estridge hadn&#x27;t been killed in that crash. More about him here:<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Don_Estridge" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Philip_Don_Estridge</a><p>and here:<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1985/08/05/us/philip-estridge-dies-in-jet-crash-guided-ibm-personal-computer.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;1985&#x2F;08&#x2F;05&#x2F;us&#x2F;philip-estridge-dies-in...</a><p>Of particular note:<p>&quot;His most revolutionary move was to make the computer&#x27;s design specifications public, allowing thousands of young people to write programs for the machine.&quot;<p>We take it for granted now, but before Don Estridge and the IBM PC, &quot;proprietary&quot; was the rule and &quot;open&quot; was the exception. RIP
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LaGrange将近 12 年前
This is a great article, with one exception:<p><i>There have been a handful involving regional affiliates, but the majors have been virtually accident-free</i><p>Now, I realize that even including those the stats are still fairly good, but it makes the &quot;virtually accident-free&quot; stats of majors a result of spinning off risk to affiliates, which is not something a consumer should care about. It might be a bit of a nit-pick (as it&#x27;s still a handful), but moving things into different brands to avoid stigma is a common and, in my opinion, unhealthy practice.
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rossjudson将近 12 年前
Great and sensible article. Read this because it &quot;pops the bubble&quot; of some of the popular memes floating around, providing details on what it means to have low hours in a type, or whether Korean pilots have &quot;perceived seniority&quot; issues in the cockpit.<p>I note that checked bags cannot block passengers from escaping an aircraft. Perhaps someone will someday quantify the additional risk airlines forced on passengers when they started charging for every bag.
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danso将近 12 年前
&gt; <i>But consider for a moment the year 1985, one of the darkest ever for commercial air travel. By the end of that year, 27 crashes had resulted in the deaths of almost 2,400 people. These included the Air India bombing over the North Atlantic, with 329 casualties, and, two months later, the crash of Japan Airlines Flight 123 outside Tokyo, with 520 dead. (These, the second- and fifth-deadliest incidents in aviation history, happened 49 days apart.) Also in 1985 were the Arrow Air disaster in Newfoundland that killed more than 240 U.S. servicemen, the infamous British Airtours 737 fire, and the crash of a Delta Air Lines L-1011 in Dallas that killed 137.</i><p>Wow, the number of fatalities that year is incomprehensible by today&#x27;s standards. Yes, this accident has made big news because so few accidents have happened in this decade...but I&#x27;d say that today&#x27;s news cycle has served to amplify just about everything, no matter what their statistical, relative, or absolute significance.
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snowwrestler将近 12 年前
&gt; Early theories as to why a plane crashed almost always turn out to be wrong or incomplete.<p>In the Air France crash over the Atlantic, the early theories all centered around the loss of airspeed indicators--a mechanical problem. When the flight recorders were finally found (an astounding feat of salvage BTW), it turned out that the airspeed indicators did fail...but then they came back online, and the pilots flew a perfectly good aircraft into the ocean anyway.<p>So as we look at this SFO crash, the lessons from Air France are mixed. On the one hand it&#x27;s possible that the early theories of pilot error will be wrong, and it will be some subtle or previously unknown software or hardware error. On the other hand we know that modern highly trained pilots <i>can</i> make enough wrong decisions in a row to crash a sound airplane.
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ColinWright将近 12 年前
Single page:<p><a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/transport/2013/07/asiana_airlines_crash_stop_blaming_sfo_s_runways_and_korea_s_pilots_for.single.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.slate.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;news_and_politics&#x2F;transport&#x2F;20...</a>
zaroth将近 12 年前
Just like Patrick Smith thinks it&#x27;s rash to indite the pilots of Flight 214 before we have all the data, I&#x27;d ask Pat to do the same for the victims, ahem, passengers.<p>I don&#x27;t think the emergency exit was some walk down the isle where a few people stopped to reach under their seats and grab their carry-on to save the inconvenience. From the pictures I saw of the cabin, the seats were torn loose, piled up on top of each other, and there was no &#x27;center isle&#x27; left. However, it does seem that the condition of the cabin after the plane came to rest was <i>highly variable</i> depending on where you were sitting.<p>For all we know, passengers that were seen carrying bags outside the aircraft could have had to throw those bags down the chute to clear the egress. Or maybe they were in a state of panic and shock and were running on autopilot (if only the plane had landed that way).<p>I do think Patrick is on to something, that the increased level of automation makes it more likely that when the automation isn&#x27;t there to help that accidents will happen. What I still don&#x27;t get is flying 30 knots too slow on approach should have been ringing alarms all over the place, including in the tower, and yet no one noticed?
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nilkn将近 12 年前
FlightAware has radar data chronicling the crash: <a href="https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAR214/history/20130706/0730Z/RKSI/KSFO/tracklog" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;flightaware.com&#x2F;live&#x2F;flight&#x2F;AAR214&#x2F;history&#x2F;20130706&#x2F;...</a><p>The NY Times made a nice graph with it: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/07/07/us/asiana214-uneven-descent.html?ref=us&amp;_r=2&amp;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;interactive&#x2F;2013&#x2F;07&#x2F;07&#x2F;us&#x2F;asiana214-u...</a>
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neurotech1将近 12 年前
I have to say I think the conclusion that this isn&#x27;t related to the Korean Airlines mishap series is mistaken. KAL Cargo Flight 8509 [1] was the last KAL crash, when cultural reasons turned a instrument malfunction into a fatal crash, because a junior FO wouldn&#x27;t speak up when a Senior Captain(Colonel RoKAF) over-banked the 747, and crashed.<p>One thing that surprises me is that the same personality trait that crashed 8509, would make them a lousy flight lead as well, not to mention a lousy Squadron CO or Wing CO. If the pilots in the squadron aren&#x27;t comfortable raising safety issues with their CO, then sooner or later, a crash will happen.<p>It&#x27;s not just a foreign issue, poor safety culture lead to the VFMAT-101 crash in San Diego, where 4 people on the ground died[2]. The CO of VR-1 (Fleet Logistics Squadron&#x2F;VIP transport) got canned for poor command climate [3], which caused a few safety issues, then fudging her NATOPS flight proficiency paperwork. A more &quot;balanced&quot; CO would have realized that flying the checkride, staying fully current would have been easier, and certainly better for safety climate.<p>IMO(Former pilot): Based on reports, the Pilot Not Flying(PNF&#x2F;Experienced FO) didn&#x27;t inform the veteran Captain that he was significantly slow by 500 ft, which could be considered the &quot;waveoff window&quot;[3] for landing a 777 on a runway, even when on a visual approach. Others have pointed out the regulations requiring a go-around for a visual approach are vaguely worded as &quot;when required&quot; without specifying the conditions. Some pilots take that the regulations literally, and believe that a visual approach doesn&#x27;t require a decision altitude, call-outs or a stabilized approach. It does require to pilots to be safe, and is often required by company Operations Manuals.<p>[1] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509</a><p>[2] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_San_Diego_F/A-18_crash" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;2008_San_Diego_F&#x2F;A-18_crash</a><p>[3] <a href="http://www.navytimes.com/article/20120916/NEWS/209160317/UAV-s-longer-wave-off-window-could-pose-threat" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.navytimes.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;20120916&#x2F;NEWS&#x2F;209160317&#x2F;UAV...</a>
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yread将近 12 年前
&gt; It’s not yet clear which Asiana pilot was physically at the controls, the captain or first officer<p>That&#x27;s not true <a href="http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/07/08/200086858/asiana-crash-plane-was-34-knots-below-target-speed-ntsb-says" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.npr.org&#x2F;blogs&#x2F;thetwo-way&#x2F;2013&#x2F;07&#x2F;08&#x2F;200086858&#x2F;asi...</a> We already know that the captain in training was flying. We also already know that a cockpit with 4 experienced pilots let the airspeed fall below vref for 30 seconds before doing anything.<p>Really good article!
chiph将近 12 年前
Probably the best take-away is that the media is sensationalizing this, primarily because there hasn&#x27;t been a crash by a major airline in over 10 years.
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wslh将近 12 年前
I saw another opinion on Philip Greenspun&#x27;s blog: <i>My visual approach, and Asiana’s</i> <a href="http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2013/07/07/my-visual-approach-and-asianas/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blogs.law.harvard.edu&#x2F;philg&#x2F;2013&#x2F;07&#x2F;07&#x2F;my-visual-appr...</a><p>He is an amateur pilot.
rz2k将近 12 年前
Perhaps the most favorable indication of the culture of commercial air flight is that the attitude exhibited by this author has been exceedingly rare.<p>First of all I haven&#x27;t read or seen any speculation that wasn&#x27;t qualified as being mere speculation. Second, this is the first instance of reading someone minimizing the accident <i>because</i> of the excellent safety record.<p>Is it too obvious to say that the safety record comes from not minimizing accidents as flukes? The rigorous&#x2F;tedious checklists, innovations like removing oxygen from near empty fuel tanks so they&#x27;re less likely to explode, and flight attendant training for quick exits come from experience and the enormous amounts of attention directed at every past failure.<p>Such advances come from a combination of the expertise of people with domain knowledge <i>and</i> people outside of the domain having high standards. In 1985, described as an example of a terrible year for air travel, one still could have put the safety record in perspective with other hazards. Surely it was far more dangerous to travel by car. It is easy to imagine pilots and engineers of 1985 wishing that outsiders who knew less than them would just shut up and let them do their jobs without unnecessary distractions. It&#x27;s even easy to imagine arguments about the meddling not only being costly, but even a dangerous distraction.<p>Some hysteria, and definitely a lot of lawsuits, aided in the prioritization of problems for people who had the expertise to come up with solutions to minimize fatalities in the future. Outside, unwelcome pressure also disrupts the status quo which, by definition, is part of every failure.<p>I imagine anyone who has domain specific expertise has at least at some time been incredibly annoyed to have to deal with and attempt to manage the reactions of nonexperts while they&#x27;re in the midst of solving a problem immediately at hand. And yet, such a reaction is cowardly, and enormously unproductive in the long term.<p>I&#x27;m not sure if I am beating a dead horse over an obvious point, or not making the point very well at all, but I think it is really important to avoid the pitfalls of only talking to experts, or peers, or people within your established hierarchy of influence when attempting to address failures. This article, made me recall students of nuclear physics on Reddit talking about Fukishima, who couldn&#x27;t decide whether it was irrelevant because it was an older reactor design, or whether it was irrelevant because it occurred after an earthquake and tsunami that were more severe than the models forecast as possible, or whether nuclear disasters in general are irrelevant because their understanding of worst case was the not-that-bad-all-things-considered case of what was only achieved through heroics of people at Chernobyl.<p>What made the point for me personally was reading about failures at NASA. I highly recommend the long &quot;Columbia&#x27;s Last Flight&quot; by William Langewiesche in <i>The Atlantic</i>[1] as it had a great influence on me when it came out in 2003, and helped me learn to value input from people without specialty knowledge. Even when special expertise defines who is most likely to develop fixes, the big picture view sometimes only afforded to outsiders is important, or sometimes just enough disruption so different voices within the system are heard.<p>In the case of NASA, things were humming along for the entire edifice because it had worked before when they squelched concerns by small groups within the enormous operation. As a result, when it failed, it was the system itself that failed, and it would have been reckless to trust that system to determine what went wrong. Perhaps even more famously, with Challenger, Richard Feynman was the gadfly in that investigation, and later had plenty to say about the ability of entire cultures to encourage mistakes specifically as a result of their desire to build in-group consensus.<p>So, I think the air travel industry deserves an enormous amount of respect for its excellent safety record, and that the shortage of voices trying minimize this failure suggests that they will accurately determine what went wrong. The value of this column is as an example to the rest of us, not in the air flight industry, of what not to do, and what attitudes stand in the way of improvement and finding solutions.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/11/columbias-last-flight/304204/?single_page=true" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2003&#x2F;11&#x2F;columbia...</a>
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furilo将近 12 年前
the article hardly says anything... (more than dont believe what media provides, which again is nothing new)
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jordanthoms将近 12 年前
I&#x27;m finding it a little annoying how people seem to like to defend every aspect of the flight - the pilots were fine, the plane was fine, the runway is fine (two of those I believe, BTW), as if that makes it better. The plane crashed and two people died, something was _definitely_ wrong.
stcredzero将近 12 年前
The distinction between regional carriers and the majors made in the article stinks. If one chooses lowest cost flights, it&#x27;s impossible to not end up on a regional carrier on one leg of your flight.
Aloisius将近 12 年前
Can someone explain to me why humans land these planes?<p>These airports are fixed. We can easily set up transmitters around them to allow the plane to triangulate its position to less than an inch. Even excluding the tragedy of the loss of human life, you would think the lost of a multi-billion dollar airplane even once every decade would push people to automate the most dangerous part of flying (landing) to machines.
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cpncrunch将近 12 年前
Whatever happened on final approach into SFO, I highly suspect that it was in fact related to the culture of Korean air safety in 2013:<p><a href="http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/518568-asiana-flight-crash-san-francisco-63.html#post7931852" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pprune.org&#x2F;rumours-news&#x2F;518568-asiana-flight-cras...</a>
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kailuowang将近 12 年前
I can&#x27;t believe I read this article on HN. People died due to some human error (if it&#x27;s not the weather it must be some human error somewhere) and the public wants to know why. Media is serving that demand, it could be over-speculating but it doesn&#x27;t mean that a polit should feel obliged to start defending the engineers on the expense of first categorizing it as a non-catastrophe and then blame the passengers.<p>To me, listing all the past tragedies to make the point that this one doesn&#x27;t deserve the public attention is at the very least inconsiderate if not offensive.
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rogerchucker将近 12 年前
Yeah, let&#x27;s give the benefit of doubt to the pilots and only scold the passengers. Typical apologist bullshit.
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