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NSA director heckled on stage at Black Hat security conference

339 点作者 tjaerv将近 12 年前

23 条评论

tptacek将近 12 年前
This entire event was a staged press op. Keith Alexander is a ~30 year veteran of SIGINT, electronic warfare, and intelligence, and a Four-Star US Army General --- which is a bigger deal than you probably think it is. He&#x27;s a spy chief in the truest sense <i>and</i> a master politician. Anyone who thinks he walked into that conference hall in Caesars without a near perfect forecast of the outcome of the speech is kidding themselves.<p>Heckling Alexander played right into the strategy. It gave him an opportunity to look reasonable compared to his detractors, and, more generally (and alarmingly), to have the NSA look more reasonable compared to opponents of NSA surveillance. It allowed him to &quot;split the vote&quot; with audience reactions, getting people who probably have serious misgivings about NSA programs to applaud his calm and graceful handling of shouted insults; many of those people probably applauded simply to protest the hecklers, who after all were making it harder for them to follow what Alexander was trying to say.<p>There was no serious Q&amp;A on offer at the keynote. The questions were pre-screened; all attendees could do was vote on them. There was no possibility that anything would come of this speech other than an effectively unchallenged full-throated defense of the NSA&#x27;s programs.<p>Even the premise of the keynote was calculated to wrong-foot NSA opponents. However much you might want to hear Alexander account for the activities of the NSA, the NSA itself is not the real oversight mechanism for the NSA! My guess is that no pol with meaningful oversight over NSA would have consented to address a room full of technology professionals about NSA&#x27;s programs; they were happy to send NSA&#x27;s own supremely well-trained figurehead to do that for them.<p>I think a walkout might have been effective, had it been organized well enough in advance (perhaps with some of the same aplomb as the [I think misguided] opposition to CISPA); at least you&#x27;d get some stinging photos.
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dmix将近 12 年前
&gt; Alexander also noted the 6,000 NSA cryptologists who have deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq, 20 of whom were killed in the line of duty according to Alexander. “Think about people willing to go forward to Iraq and Afghanistan, to make sure our soldiers, airmen and marines get the intelligence they need,” he said. “I believe these are the most noble people we have in this country.”<p>Having lost a brother who deployed as a signals operator in Afghanistan (to an IED), it always makes me cringe whenever they use forward-deployed soldiers as a defense of the higher-level states &quot;nobility&quot;. There is nothing noble about mass surveillance or the invasion of privacy of non-enemy combatant nations&#x2F;citizens.<p>The fact citizens signed up to risk their lives in combat-zones at the bottom end of the chain does not legitimize the actions of those at the top.
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norswap将近 12 年前
Hackers <i>applauded </i> Alexander? He really has played them like pipes.<p>You can argue all you want, but in the end, some boundaries have to be set. What the NSA did (does actually) is way past that boundary for most people, and I think with reason, but that&#x27;s another debate. He hasn&#x27;t supplied any argument that would make us reconsider the boundaries. All this terrorist talk is bullshit.
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vijayboyapati将近 12 年前
Funny how Alexander says he&#x27;s read the Constitution, and implores the heckler to do the same. If one can read the Constitution and square the NSA&#x27;s mass surveillance with the 4th amendment then one can square a circle. There really is no point in debating people like this on the technicalities of the Constitution. What they understand is power. He has it and we don&#x27;t. He knows how to pull the levers that matter, and which Congressman and executive branch bureaucrats to lean on to make sure his bailiwick is not reduced by a single inch. The rest of us, sadly, are left flailing around hoping that pointing to a piece of paper is an effective check on evil.
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IanDrake将近 12 年前
&gt;the four-star general presented a timeline of terrorist attacks around the world, from the 1993 World Trade Center bombing to the <i>Boston Marathon attack</i>.<p>Can anyone speak as to why, with the NSA&#x27;s systems, they were not able to thwart an attack by the ass clowns in Boston? Russia even warned us about them and they made frequent contact with foreigners.<p>I&#x27;m sorry, but that terrorist event seems like low hanging fruit if their system really works to protect us.
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mjfl将近 12 年前
I don&#x27;t care whether the director of the NSA is a bad guy, it just makes <i>you</i> look bad if you heckle someone on stage. There are probably few more scrutinizing audiences for the director of the NSA than a professional security conference. I would rather have him say what he has to say and be analysed by the many bright minds at the conference than for him to be childishly interrupted and waste time that could be spent talking about the actual role of the NSA in the security of the nation.
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rbanffy将近 12 年前
I find particularly hard to believe the &quot;6,000 NSA cryptologists who have deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq&quot; part. Why would anyone want to deploy cryptologists into a war zone?<p>I also found disheartening the applause given to the general for his clever answers. &quot;I have. So should you&quot;?! I expected more from the Black Hat crowd.<p>And, finally, I applaud Jon McCoy for his sacrifice. His willingness to endure all the cavity searches he&#x27;ll be subjected to before and after every flight inspires us all.
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JumpCrisscross将近 12 年前
&quot;<i>Ninety-eight percent of society has issues with this</i>&quot;<p>&quot;The national survey by the Pew Research Center, conducted July 17-21 among 1,480 adults, finds that 50% approve of the government’s collection of telephone and internet data as part of anti-terrorism efforts, while 44% disapprove. These views are little changed from a month ago, when 48% approved and 47% disapproved.&quot;<p><a href="http://www.people-press.org/2013/07/26/few-see-adequate-limits-on-nsa-surveillance-program/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.people-press.org&#x2F;2013&#x2F;07&#x2F;26&#x2F;few-see-adequate-limi...</a>
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northwest将近 12 年前
&gt; “No, I’m saying I don’t trust you!” shouted McCoy.<p>I believe that&#x27;s pretty central here. I don&#x27;t see how we can ever be able again to trust an organism such as the NSA - or even the government.<p>Transparency is the only solution here. Will we get it?<p>If we don&#x27;t, the only <i>other</i> solution would be to cut budgets so drastically that such an enterprise will simply not be possible financially, anymore.<p>And maybe, as a general improvement: Decentralize the government and give the States back their autonomy (and here you have your link between technology and politics - see the recent cry for less &quot;political posts&quot; on HN).
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northwest将近 12 年前
&gt; “I haven’t lied to Congress,” Alexander responded<p>And WTF was that, now?<p>EDIT: I guess this is true because actually, he lied to the chairs in the room. Or some coffee mugs that were also present.<p>Is that how one evades a lie detector, btw?<p>It really can&#x27;t get any sicker. We have now reached the bottom.
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kyzyl将近 12 年前
Looks like I&#x27;m a little late for this comment party, but I&#x27;d just like to highlight one comment from the Forbes website that I thought was good:<p>&quot;In general I agree with McCoy in his ad-hoc debate with Gen Alexander as well as his post presentation remarks about the distorted perspective of national security. At the same time, I do conceed that the NSA is acting in good faith and ‘within the law’ as presented to them via the Patriot Act. I have similar feeling about the value of TSA, but whereas the TSA is a publicly disclosed program, my most pressing concern with the NSA is the secrecy of it. First, the secrecy presents an extremely high degree of risk (in terms of both the probabilty of occurance as well as the dangers) of mission creep. I doubt Congressional nor FISC oversight are adequate to mitigate this risk. Second, secrecy is not really a valid tool for deterence. Anti-terrorism programs are like a doomsday devices: it’s a good deterence only if it is widely known about (see Dr Strangelove). Moreover, while secret programs might be good for support of kill&#x2F;capture programs, it is far from clear that such efforts reduce terrorism.<p>For all I know, the government spy&#x2F;drone program is to terrorists as a hammer is to an ant colony. If you have a spilled pot of honey in the kitchen, it doesn’t matter how good you are at spotting and smashing ants. I want to know these things, so that I can help shape public policy through the ballot box.&quot; --uspatriot2001<p>I think that&#x27;s a good assessment of the high-level picture, and it&#x27;s much more informative than &quot;NSA BAD! Freedom good!&quot; (not to belittle anyone&#x27;s comments here) in that it reflects a road forward.
dutchbrit将近 12 年前
Audio here: <a href="https://soundcloud.com/larrymagid/nsa-director-general-keith" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;soundcloud.com&#x2F;larrymagid&#x2F;nsa-director-general-keith</a>
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JonFish85将近 12 年前
All things considered, it seems like Keith Alexander did a pretty good job of handling the situation. Personally I think the heckler sounded like a douche (&quot;read the Constitution&quot; sounds like a dumb thing to say to a 4 star general who probably has better knowledge of it than your average hacker), even if he (the heckler) had some good points.<p>It would have been easy for the situation to devolve into something much uglier, but fortunately it seems like things stayed pretty calm!
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replax将近 12 年前
Wow, I am really, really surprised. Especially as Gen. Alexander gave the keynote speech to DEFCON last year, and explicitly said, when asked after his speech:<p>Q: &quot;[..]Does the NSA really keep a file on anyone? [...]&quot;<p>A: &quot;[..] Frist, no, we don&#x27;t [...]&quot;<p>Absolutely astonishing!<p>listen&#x2F;watch here: <a href="http://youtu.be/tz0ejKersnM?t=33m2s" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;tz0ejKersnM?t=33m2s</a>
podperson将近 12 年前
No idea how accurate a depiction of the speech this is, but the article is -- contrary to the title -- portraying the speech as having been warmly received, applauded, with one lone heckler. Now, whether or not one agrees with General Alexander, there are more courteous and productive ways to express yourself than yelling &quot;bullshit&quot;.
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etiam将近 12 年前
Keith Alexander&#x27;s way of bending words, and his facility with swinging a crowd and lying skillfully under pressure once again reminds me disturbingly of accounts I&#x27;ve read about psychopaths, and of probable psychopaths I&#x27;ve encountered. Those patterns could of course be stuff you pick up anyway as a top player for power, but I find the parallels highly worrisome. For those who have never read anything about the subject, may I suggest browsing e.g. &quot;Without conscience&quot; by Robert D. Hare. The sections with court proceedings in particular illustrate well what I mean.
generj将近 12 年前
I think this underscores Defcon&#x27;s decision to exclude the Feds this year.
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YellowRex将近 12 年前
I hate Forbes - interstitial ads and persistent headers are super annoying. Can we stop posting Forbes links?<p>Boing Boing has the same coverage with a much more reader-friendly site design: <a href="http://boingboing.net/2013/07/31/nsa-capo-heckled-at-black-hat.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;boingboing.net&#x2F;2013&#x2F;07&#x2F;31&#x2F;nsa-capo-heckled-at-black-h...</a>
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rinon将近 12 年前
Video seems to be up at <a href="https://www.blackhat.com/us-13/archives.html#Alexander" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.blackhat.com&#x2F;us-13&#x2F;archives.html#Alexander</a>
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abalone将近 12 年前
In fairness, the title could just as well be &quot;NSA director <i>applauded</i> on stage at Black Hat security conference&quot;.<p>The crowd&#x27;s reaction was definitely mixed.
wil421将近 12 年前
From the article: “Everyone’s thinking this, but no one’s saying it public, so everyone thinks they’re alone,” he said. “Ninety-eight percent of society has issues with this…But no one speaks up.”<p>While I think some people don&#x27;t how to speak up, beside calling&#x2F;writing my congress person, many don&#x27;t care either way. In fact, many older people I have talked to (I am in my twenties) dont have a problem with what the NSA is doing. They dont really mind if their data is being sifted through as long as its being used to &quot;Find Terrorists or what have you.&quot;<p>My problem is the lack of oversight and the fact court that has approved 1,789 out of 1,748 requests (97.7%!!!!). Not only that but they have legal justifications for what they are doing, therefore since its legal its allowed, forget the morals&#x2F;ethics involved.<p>Who&#x27;s to say they won&#x27;t turn this around on the public at large because it will prevent smaller crimes instead of terrorists. Also whats to stop the government from calling people who oppose their views terrorists and then just spy directly at American people.
jotm将近 12 年前
“And if you disagree with what we’re doing, you should help us twice as much.”<p>Right, so they end up like Snowden...
leke将近 12 年前
All this bad press is a great incentive for people to develop encryption skills. I&#x27;m now looking into javascript client to client encryption of certain social sites and services using greasemonkey to organise the contacts and keys database.