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How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

239 点作者 pvilchez将近 12 年前

35 条评论

dkhenry将近 12 年前
I understand the point the article is trying to make, but its not realistic. Having worked with the Navy for a few years I know that the biggest use of airplanes is not air to air combat ( which is what this article is complaining about ) It is air to land bombing. So why are we complaining about making an air force that serves our needs rather then one that might be useful for some other task.<p>As a note he says this will be the &quot;new mainstay of the air force&quot; however we still have the F-22 as our air superiority fighter which is still believed to be better then anything out there, and indeed in their simulation the only limitation to the F-22 was there were too few of them. So this isn&#x27;t really about America losing air superiority its about a few analysts not taking into account the entire mission of the three branches of the military. Maybe this plane doesn&#x27;t stack up well against the F-16 or F-22, but It sure beats the Harrier and the F-18.
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chiph将近 12 年前
The USAF intends to replace the A-10 with this turkey, and it&#x27;s an awful idea.<p>A-10: holds 1350 rounds of 30mm ammo. F-35: holds 180 rounds of smaller 25mm ammo internally, plus 220 rounds externally<p>A-10: 1.8 hour loiter time. F-35: Not listed, but as a high subsonic (stall speed) fighter, it&#x27;s going to be shorter<p>A-10: Has titanium armor protecting the pilot &amp; critical systems. F-35: Already overweight, no chance of any armor.<p>A-10: Can be field repaired. F-35: Because of stealth requirements, only the simplest of damage can be repaired in the field.<p>And then there&#x27;s the price...<p>[Edit: Added stall speed qualification]
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jasonwatkinspdx将近 12 年前
&quot;It could be that China doesn’t know how to build a working lift fan and that’s why they left it off, Aboulafia said. But for a country that has unveiled two different radar-evading stealth warplane prototypes in just the last two years, that seems unlikely. It’s more plausible that China could build a lift fan-equipped plane and has chosen not to.&quot;<p>The major difference is in posture. The US military wants to be able to project power globally. That means fighting from carriers or allied bases of varying quality half way around the world. The Chinese only care about their borders and regional power projection. VSTOL doesn&#x27;t gain them anything since they&#x27;ll never be that distant from their own bases.<p>This is the same reason why the Chinese haven&#x27;t put much into carriers, but have a ton of ballistic missile ships.
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sschueller将近 12 年前
&quot;Lockheed’s F-117 stealth fighter was developed in a breakneck 30 months by a close-knit team of 50 engineers led by an experienced fighter designer named Alan Brown and overseen by seven government employees.&quot;<p>vs.<p>&quot;The F-35, by contrast, is being designed by some 6,000 engineers led by a rotating contingent of short-tenure managers, with no fewer than 2,000 government workers providing oversight.&quot;
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beloch将近 12 年前
Some U.S. allies are almost certainly going to bail out of the F-35 program. Spiraling costs, the ideology requiring VSTOL, and some bizarrely secretive aspects of the JSF project are conspiring to kill the F-35 as a viable option for countries like Canada.<p>A surprising thing is that countries taking part in development are not permitted complete access to program data. The U.S., despite making use of other nations expertise in the development and manufacturing of the F-35,is trying to keep some aspects classified from the nations who are supposed to buy the plane!<p>Some Canadian pundits have (not seriously) called for the F-35 to be ditched and the Avro Arrow resurrected. The Arrow was developed in the 50&#x27;s as an interceptor and, other than being <i>significantly</i> faster than the F-35 is probably inferior for Canada&#x27;s requirements. It was designed in the freakin&#x27; 50&#x27;s! It really is amazing that Canada went from manufacturing other country&#x27;s WWII propeller plane designs to building prototype&#x27;s faster than today&#x27;s state-of-the-art F-35 in just a little over a decade. The fact that the F-35 is significantly slower than a 55 year old jet really shines light on how compromised its design is.<p>There are many rumors surrounding the cancellation of the Avro Arrow since it was probably superior to any other interceptor of its time, and one that refuses to die is that the U.S. was pressuring Canada to drop the program since Boeing, Lockheed, etc. felt threatened by Avro. Avro was basically destroyed by the cancellation of the Arrow, and guess where Avro engineers wound up!<p>I mention all this because Canada, despite being a perpetually self-doubting nation, has significant aerospace and weapon expertise. Canada also has some pretty unique design requirements not met by any existing fighters. The budget to build fighters locally may not ultimately exist, but if the Canadian government decides to compromise to cut costs, the F-35 is a horrendous option. It doesn&#x27;t meet Canadian requirements, isn&#x27;t on time, is getting more expensive every day, and the U.S. is trying to treat them like turn-key installations rather than selling planes.<p>Why should the U.S. care? Every nation that bails on the JSF program will raise costs for those that remain. Once one nation leaves, a domino effect will likely ensue. Based on this article, I can&#x27;t say that&#x27;s necessarily bad!
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brudgers将近 12 年前
I am not saying that the JSF is a good plane, or that VSTOL is a good thing. But the claims of the article are all resting on this:<p><i>&quot;In the scenario, 72 Chinese jets patrolled the Taiwan Strait. Just 26 American warplanes — the survivors of a second missile barrage targeting their airfields — were able to intercept them, including 10 twin-engine F-22 stealth fighters that quickly fired off all their missiles&quot;</i><p>To summarize this scenario:<p><pre><code> () Successful Chinese first strike. () 72 Chinese aircraft. () Operating at short range () With initiative </code></pre> versus<p><pre><code> () 10 F22 () 16 F35 () Operating at long range () Without initiative </code></pre> Fastest with mostest trumps technology - e.g. the US didn&#x27;t prevent the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 and the Tigers didn&#x27;t stop the Shermans in 1944 [or less famously in North Africa a year earlier].<p>In assessing the probability of the scenario, my questions:<p><pre><code> () how many allied drones? () where is the Navy? () when did the straight of Taiwan stop being a nuclear tipping point?</code></pre>
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caycep将近 12 年前
Honestly, for those who really know the battles within the Pentagon about the design and procurement of equipment, it&#x27;s no surprise. Too much design-by-committee, and mission creep from difference parts of different services who want a piece of the funding pie. When the program is billed as &quot;one plane for all 3 services,&quot; you know there&#x27;s trouble brewing on the horizon.<p>It&#x27;s telling that a lot of the quotes from this article comes from former members of the &quot;fighter mafia&quot; that pushed for focused designs from small groups done in &quot;stealth&quot; before the committees with their &quot;mission creep&quot; hit the design process. The F-16 and A-10, as a result, were widely hailed as revolutionary designs for the roles they were meant for (although in hindsight they followed the obvious path for air superiority and close air support aircraft). The F&#x2F;A-18 was not quite as capable, but was nevertheless able to benefit from the design knowledge gained by these programs.<p>The managers&#x2F;designers of the F-16 and A-10 programs include Chuck Spinney and Pierre Sprey, both heavily quoted here. John Boyd was one of the major figures, and is probably one of the most hated men in the Pentagon, but has since passed away.<p>The F-35 is succeeding brilliantly in its mission, though, which is to funnel taxpayer money to a nice fat cross section of the military-industrial complex.
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coldcode将近 12 年前
Having worked on the F16 at one point in my career it kicks the F35 is the ass every day and twice on Sunday. Plus you can buy 20 of them for every F35. It&#x27;s all about money though, the F16 is too cheap to keep Lockheed in business no matter how much you upgrade it.
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protomyth将近 12 年前
You pretty much knew it was having some serious problems when the US Navy started talking about long term F-18 upgrades. They are currently testing conformal tanks (like the F-15 has). It seemed like the F-22 folks were solving their problems while the F-35 has been doing press.<p>Looking at it from the now, we probably should have built the full F-22 order and scrapped the F-35 for something far cheaper. I still think a successor to the A-10 and an evolved F-18 would have been better paths. Perhaps we also shouldn&#x27;t award both contracts to the same company.
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gilgoomesh将近 12 年前
Ultimately, this article has one point but makes it about ten times. The point is that the F-35 led to the U.S. losing the 2008 war game. All of the quotes (particularly from Australian military officials) are about the failed 2008 war game.<p>It might seem like a valid point except that the war game deliberately crippled all the F-22s (the U.S. air superiority fighters) and instead pitched the F-35s (the U.S. jack-of-all trades jets) against Chinese air superiority fighters. It shouldn&#x27;t be a surprise that a computer doesn&#x27;t like that fight but it&#x27;s a contrived and fairly silly situation since it&#x27;s not really the F-35s job.
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jkl32将近 12 年前
$1 trillion; this is why the US has no health care. Does anyone realistically believe you will go to war with China or Russia anymore?<p>It&#x27;s time to stop the charade of war, and help your own citizens instead.
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VLM将近 12 年前
Nobody mentioned the Osprey yet? The F-35 might suck, but at least its not an Osprey. The wikipedia article fails in being a bit too neutral PoV. Only people who are being paid to say the Osprey is great, or ordered by their CO to say its great, say its great, everyone else says it sucks. Except maybe our enemies, because using the Osprey has proven to be a reasonably effective way to kill american military personnel and waste enormous amounts of money.<p>I think this is one fail in the article. Yes the F-35 kinda sucks when it&#x27;s given other planes jobs, compared to how well planes designed to do one specific job do at that one specific task. How about comparing it to something even worse? Then it still sucks, but its not quite the worst case, even if its still the most expensive of the bad situations.
bediger4000将近 12 年前
I think this article glosses over the general &quot;fossilization&quot; of aerospace&#x2F;defence corporations in the USA, and Lock&#x2F;Mart in particular.<p>Before merging, Lockheed and Martin both had the reputation of being really hidebound. From experience, Martin was exceptionally married to processes and procedures and tradition.<p>If you look at other things that LockMart has (like the Littoral Combat Ship, <a href="http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/01/littoral-combat-ship/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wired.com&#x2F;dangerroom&#x2F;2013&#x2F;01&#x2F;littoral-combat-ship...</a>) you can see that LockMart has general engineering problems.<p>General engineering troubles seems to plague LockMart.
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jasonwatkinspdx将近 12 年前
My prediction of how this will end up playing out: We&#x27;ll waste money on the JSF, but thankfully won&#x27;t ever put it into a real combat threat. The Defense Dept will pretend everything was a grand success while moving to UCAV&#x27;s with haste. I think it&#x27;s clear Navy decision makers came to this view long ago. They tried to pull out of the JSF program but Robert Gates smacked them back in line. Meanwhile they&#x27;re pushing the X-47 development program as fast as they can.
gadders将近 12 年前
I&#x27;m surprised at the criticism the harrier gets in the article. They&#x27;re popular in the UK and appeared to perform pretty well in the Falklands, for instance.
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jotm将近 12 年前
Indeed, why not make 5 different planes for different purposes instead of one that does everything...<p>I mean, it&#x27;s not like they&#x27;re also building an aircraft carrier that can launch ballistic missiles, cruise at 50 knots, go up rivers and also submerge... or are they :-)?
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ergest将近 12 年前
John Boyd fought for years to build single-purpose fighters, but the idea of one, all-purpose warplane is just too seductive. (See John Boyd&#x27;s biography by Robert Coram)
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kawera将近 12 年前
<i>...currently an estimated $1 trillion to design, build and operate 2,400 copies...</i><p>Am I the only one shocked that a country spend this much to make a weapon? Is there any decency left?
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ryusage将近 12 年前
To be honest, I&#x27;m surprised they haven&#x27;t started switching to air-to-air drones yet. They seem to be using them for everything else these days.
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stcredzero将近 12 年前
One of the biggest factors is pilot training. To put things in perspective, there are instances where US pilots in 4th gen aircraft have gotten simulated missile locks and gunsight pippers on Su-30MKIs and F-22s -- which even have thrust vectoring! You have to have the right equipment, but even great equipment in the hands of bad&#x2F;inexperienced pilots will result in poor outcomes.<p>I&#x27;ve read that some think the F-35 is problematic in this regard as well. It will be more expensive to maintain pilot training in these planes, and this will result in less US pilot training.<p>EDIT: Also, the F-35 seems to be putting all of its eggs in the &quot;stealth basket.&quot; It can&#x27;t loiter like an A-10 for ground support. It can&#x27;t turn with the F-15, F-16, or F-18 for the air superiority role. It&#x27;s all about getting in undetected, and firing high-tech missiles. If something goes wrong with that, the pilots are stuck with a less dependable and less capable aircraft.
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ryoshu将近 12 年前
Why are we still building manned fighter planes?
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neurotech1将近 12 年前
This article is very biased. The F-35 is being compared to a clean (no external stores) F-16, not a F-16 with same combat radius and weapons as internally carried on the F-35.<p>The F-35 also has significantly better avionics than the F-16C Block 50.<p>For a more balanced opinion go to <a href="http://www.f-16.net" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.f-16.net</a>
adventured将近 12 年前
It&#x27;s my opinion that the JSF will be quickly replaced - hopefully domestically, but definitely globally - by air superiority drones and bombing drones. The very rapid pace of development and much lower cost guarantees that outcome. It&#x27;ll happen in the next decade. If the US doesn&#x27;t invest in order to lead that charge, we&#x27;ll be embarrassed by other countries that will. Even if there&#x27;s an argument to be made in favor of pilots in planes, countries will rapidly turn to drone technology because it&#x27;s cheaper.<p>It appears likely to take another decade to get the JSF program where it should already be. By that time it&#x27;ll be a trivial matter to swarm these planes out of the sky with drones that cost 5% to 10% as much per plane. Even a limited country such as Iran is going to be able to take down the F-35 by throwing multiple drones at it.
dools将近 12 年前
If the VSTOL capabilities are only required to launch the aircraft in a really narrow set of circumstances (ie. from a ship with a helipad rather than a landing strip) why don&#x27;t they have a detachable booster model? I&#x27;m imagining something that sits on top of the aircraft and provides the vertical thrust during take-off then detaches as the plane blasts off horizontally, leaving the booster free to lower itself onto the next plane for take-off and so on until the fleet has been dispatched and it can land itself on the platform. Instead of the capability to land, all you&#x27;d need is to build the planes so they could be ditched in the sea close by and this thing could go pick them up.<p>In other words just have a detachable VSTOL module instead of having to integrate it into the plane.
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alexeisadeski3将近 12 年前
Modern fighter aircraft need to: a) not be seen b) be fast (time to target is still important!) c) carry a decent payload of weapons.<p>Ideally target selection should be provided by AWACS, and missile-sensors provide the final kill guidance, allowing the fighter (AKA missile-launch platform) to remain stealthy. In the absence of AWACS, the fighter will need to carry it&#x27;s own sensor suite.<p>Modern air warfare is all about sensors, ECM and stealth. The airframe is almost inconsequential.<p>(This comment is copy+pasted from demallien&#x27;s comment here: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6213619" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=6213619</a> )
InclinedPlane将近 12 年前
It&#x27;s tradition. Some of the biggest turds in fighter-plane history have come out of big, bloated &quot;one-size-fits-all&quot; development programs (like the F-111). And interestingly a lot of the most capable and long-lived combat aircraft have come about through rogue programs and fly offs trying to remedy the problems of being saddled with planes that just didn&#x27;t work well. The F-16, A-10, F-14, etc.
thelucky41将近 12 年前
&gt;even older Russian and Chinese jets that can fly faster and farther and maneuver better<p>Dogfighting is obsolete as homing missiles fly faster, farther, and are more maneuverable than the plane carrying them. Air superiority belongs to the plane with the more sophisticated radar and stealth that is flying at a higher altitude. Flying faster also aids intercepting incoming aircraft or escaping interception attempts.
smegel将近 12 年前
Come on, planes are only part of the equation. Weapons, radar, air-to-air refueling, C4I, logistics, aircraft carriers...they will all make a big difference.<p>The idea that a war is going to come down to a single F-35 vs a Sukhoi without any other support factors is a bit fanciful.<p>The F-35 is looking a bit expensive for what you get though.
brownbat将近 12 年前
&gt; The jack-of-all-trades JSF has become the master of none.<p>I feel like I&#x27;ve read this same article about the Shuttle and one of the Army vehicles, maybe the M2 Bradley.
6d0debc071将近 12 年前
I wonder whether the article is applying a lot of thought to an issue that won&#x27;t really matter very much in a decade or so.<p>Fighters, as a delivery&#x2F;sensor platform need to be manoeuvrable to not get hit. It&#x27;s economics - people are expensive to train, sensors are expensive, and so you need an expensive system that you can reuse to ensure a good ROI.<p>Couple this with the increasing effectiveness of ground based missile defences and it&#x27;s questionable whether you can plausibly hope to penetrate an airspace defended with a next generation, automated, system anyway. Whether investing that sort of money in the aircraft is going to give you something survivable. I don&#x27;t believe it&#x27;s ever been tried against a current gen system, and I&#x27;m aware that operating in areas with previous-generation air-defence systems has been incredibly risky already.<p>However. -chews her lip- If you <i>don&#x27;t</i> have a lot of money sunk into your delivery platform - and if your sensors are out of harms way - then the survivability of the remaining components of the system, the bit that just has to get your missile, or whatever, into the area becomes a non-issue.<p>To an extent the original cruise missiles were the answer to just that question with respect to the Soviet Union: How do you penetrate a well defended airspace without losing an unacceptably high investment?<p>Consequently, I wonder whether air dominance, in the mid to long term, is going to be increasingly determined by the quality of your missiles. By extremely long range missile systems interacting with very powerful, networked, sensors (that might be, for example, based on drones far beyond the active area.)<p>Under that sort of interpretation, you won&#x27;t have a fighter. At its logical extreme, you&#x27;ll have a cruise missile that can go to the operational area in a reasonable timeframe and has a very fast second or third stage to do the final closing with the target. You can make your cruise missile go faster than any fighter could, because the airframe is a throw away, and because you don&#x27;t have to hold any fuel back to get back to base, and because it will be vastly lighter, and because you don&#x27;t have to worry about any squishy human riding in it.<p>That seems, to me, like the logical extension of the see first shoot first doctrine that the F-22 and 35 were based upon, the logical extension of drones as a low-cost delivery method, and the logical extension of the need to penetrate increasingly well defended airspaces.<p>If that is how things go, the quality of the aircraft you have becomes largely irrelevant. They&#x27;d never get close enough to the action to need great performance.
w_t_payne将近 12 年前
Well, the days of manned warplanes are fast running out anyway. UCAVs are the future, baby.
ChikkaChiChi将近 12 年前
200 million USD per strike fighter vs. under 17 million per Reaper.<p>No wonder we are broke.
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choarham将近 12 年前
so... how about that well funded school system we enjoy here in the US?
sirkneeland将近 12 年前
I read this and think &quot;man, these guys are going to be great at running healthcare&quot;
crusso将近 12 年前
<i>America’s newest stealth warplane and the planned mainstay of the future Air Force and the air arms of the Navy and Marine Corps, was no match for Chinese warplanes</i><p>I&#x27;m sure that&#x27;s in lots of papers in China today.