Loyalty and Layoffs

I feel it&#x27;s important to remember that in the employee-employer relationship, you&#x27;re peers. You both need to provide the other with value, and you both need to be frank about your relationship when these values are lop-sided. And you need to be clear about what the value of the things being offered are. Your employer is not your family, your mom, or your significant other. It&#x27;s a peer with which you trade value. Every person who works is a single-person business selling their particular expertise and time.<p>I feel like maintaining this attitude can help with all sorts of stuff, including dealing with job offers, negotiating pay, etc. And key to this is having a fairly good knowledge of the value that you provide so you know what value you deserve in return. (Being acutely aware of the value you provide can also help steer you towards higher-value skill sets.)<p>Intangibles are great. But don&#x27;t live in fantasy land. And be aware that no one&#x27;s obligated to give you anything unless it&#x27;s written in a contract.

My opinion:<p>You don&#x27;t have to be loyal. Instead, be professional.<p>That means you retain many of the qualities of loyalty -- dilligence and an eye for the advantage of your client or employer -- without being afraid to ask for the going rate for your services.<p>A professional is also prepared to argue for the best interests of the client and to refuse to act unethically, even when the client doesn&#x27;t want to hear it. Our cousin professions enjoy pretty strong legal support for the latter.

May I please add a comment from outside the bubble? It does not have to be this way. My current employer is a low cost travel company, we are celebrating our 43rd anniversary as a company. In these 43 years not a single person has been laid off. Not one janitor, not one programmer, not one reservations agent.<p>We do not have a planetarium. We do not have a movie theater. We do not offer free food to our employees every day. We do not as a policy, pay for our employees&#x27; day care. We do not implement the latest and greatest technologies on a whim because we think they are cool.<p>We do offer one of the best, IMO, health care plans in the industry. We do respect our employees, vendors and co-workers. We do offer generous retirements benefits. We do work very hard to use technology to solve problems that are as or more difficult than your favorite silicon valley startup. We do take into account the ability to sustain every single employee for the next 20 years into every decision we make. We do treat every employee like they are a member of our family and will continue to for the next 43 years.<p>Consider all of the above when you are looking for a new job or starting a new company.

Remember if anyone promised you verbally any financial windfall in exchange for loyalty, no matter how charismatic they are don&#x27;t fall for it. In the end they would end up most likely not delivering (and of course they will blame on an external scapegoated 3rd party for it).<p>It is a good idea to always be read to leave. Don&#x27;t burn bridges but don&#x27;t assume the company you work for is your family. Why? They extract double the work from you working nights in exchange for fluffy promises. A lot of managers are managers because they know how to promote well. Promote themselves well and promote the company to you. Be aware of that.

I&#x27;m working at a big company where most employees have worked for a very long time. On my team, besides me, the person who has worked the shortest time is 9 years. The next one after that: 15 years. Most managers and senior engineers have worked here for 20 years or more. They&#x27;ve constructed their whole life around this job, it&#x27;s almost sad. If in their 20 years have switched jobs, it was within the company. I&#x27;m not trying to be patronizing, it&#x27;s just that The Company is not doing well, and I think there will be very tough times ahead for many these people, and most of them seem to think The Company will always be there to pay the bills. There&#x27;s this group think going on that &quot;we&#x27;ve had similar crises before, but we always get through it&quot;. This time is different, but they won&#x27;t realize it. The world is moving a lot quicker today.<p>I think our younger generation is much more weary of being loyal to corporations. We&#x27;ve seen what happens in economic crises, and most of our lives have been just that: one big economic crisis after another.

I&#x27;ve gone through a number of these company bust-ups. The first one was fairly traumatic for a lot of people, but I&#x27;d only been there 3 months. 2001, In my interview, when I was asked &quot;Is there anything you&#x27;d like to ask us&quot; I said, &quot;look this is awkward, but I&#x27;ve seen the company mentioned on fuckedcompany.com a number of times, and it&#x27;s all bad news, is there any concern?&quot; and I received the answer &quot;Oh that&#x27;s our American parent company, we&#x27;ll be unaffected&quot;. 3 months later, gone gone gone. I watched people who&#x27;d worked there&#x2F;started the company get turfed out, and crying. I had barely been in the office (working offsite) so I didn&#x27;t even really feel any attachment at all, so it was all quite surreal.<p>Next job I worked for a small company where the two directors ended up being unable to pay staff, so they put everything on their credit cards, and convinced everyone to resign and sign up as contractors. It was only years later that it dawned on me, that by resigning they didn&#x27;t have to pay severance packages. We were young and trusting.

Shortly after being hired full time at my first ever full time salaried job, my manager when I was an intern was laid off with some others. It really sucked and it was a good initial lesson for me. I will never be loyal to a company if I don&#x27;t own a significant piece of it.<p>I don&#x27;t wear clothing with the company logo, I rarely attend company events, I don&#x27;t mix anything in my personal life (insurance plans&#x2F;cell phone contracts ect...) with company provided deals or discounts. I keep over 12 months of living expenses liquid. That being said, I try to remain professional and take the job for what it is. They pay me a salary, I do work. In the distant future I look forward to bootstrapping my own business.

The &quot;400+&quot; employee lay-off that the author referenced was this one: <a href="http://timesfreepress.com/news/2013/aug/16/layoffs-hit-chattanooga-based-payday-lender/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;timesfreepress.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;2013&#x2F;aug&#x2F;16&#x2F;layoffs-hit-chatt...</a><p>There was a lot more to the lay-off than the company losing their primary income model<p>This happened in my hometown (Chattanooga, Tennessee).

It&#x27;s been my point of view since the first dot-com crash that my employer and I are &quot;even&quot; every payday. I&#x27;ve done my work, and been compensated for it. I&#x27;m not sure what else one can reasonably expect.

Great point, if not a little acrimonious, about the role of a CEO in a corporation. Even though the CEO (or anyone over your head for that matter) may enjoy you as a person, or even find you to be the perfect guy for the job, the bottom line still means a lot more than your life. I think it&#x27;s important to remember that it&#x27;s okay to love your job <i>and</i> the company you work for, as well as be loyal to them, but that loyalty goes both ways. I&#x27;m loyal to my employer as long as they loyally pay me and don&#x27;t treat me like a piece of shit. But there&#x27;s no love. My teammates are awesome but if, say, Github gave me a call and wanted to hire me, I&#x27;d be giving my two weeks tomorrow. And if Github ended up being a bad fit, I can always keep looking. As a Ruby developer in Philadelphia, I&#x27;m always being courted by recruiters and job offers, because there are so few of us here.

When he said the first story happened in 2002, I was expecting to hear a story about getting your workstation as a severence package.<p>I knew so many people during the crash who had the most random computer and office equipment. All &#x27;acquired&#x27; when their company went out of business.<p>Aeron chair. Anthro cart. Sun Ultra 10, loaded. $4,000 Toshiba laptop. Occaisonaly some Cisco kit or a fairly beefy server. &quot;This used to run &lt;insert failed site&gt; dot com.&quot;<p>How&#x27;d that work? Didn&#x27;t the creditors or management care?

I don&#x27;t disagree entirely. . .and in my previous life as a manager. . .and before that, as a team lead. . .I encouraged everyone to keep growing professionally and to keep their resume updated - and to never assume that they could stay forever and&#x2F;or leave on their own terms. I told them that I did and that I just considered it sound professional advice, no matter how much we loved and respected each other, the organization&#x27;s mission, etc. On the other hand, I do have loyalty to any co-workers and managers that I genuinely like AND respect. Not to the point that I would sacrifice myself professionally for them, but I do have loyalty. And in past lives, I&#x27;ve told those that I trusted to be mum and professional when I was starting to look for another position - even if was just another position in the same organization and just to give them a heads-up.<p>As a matter of fact, my peer in our organization left a few months ago. She felt guilty, knowing that my life would almost immediately become more difficult, but I stressed to her to do what was best for her. She started to waver when management asked her to delay her departure - I reiterated that she should not worry about me or management. She was loyal - which I appreciated. And I was loyal and shoved her out the door.

So much truth in that post, though I found it a bit histrionic. but I can&#x27;t stress this enough, (especially for young developers) work hard but keep your eyes open.<p>Remember to ask yourself, &quot;if this startup&#x2F;firm&#x2F;company went to shit tomorrow, what would happen to me?&quot; ... if you think that people at that firm are going to take care of you when things get bad ... slap yourself. Just like in the OP, you might luck out and have someone care enough to give you a soft landing, but that is the exception and not the rule. Always make sure you don&#x27;t get caught out there,<p>- passively scan the market every 18 months and go on an interview or two. At worst you&#x27;ll realize how much you&#x27;re being taken advantage of, at best you&#x27;ll realize how lucky you are to have your job.<p>- Stay in touch with direct contacts at companies that sound interesting who reach out to you, especially on linkedin (I ignore 3rd party developers). If they took the time to reach out to you, just respond with a &quot;Hey I&#x27;m not really looking to leave right now but lets stay in touch&quot;. Grab coffee with them, and find out what they&#x27;re up to. This way if everything goes to crap you have a warm lead for gigs, instead of competing with your teammates to get your resume in front of hiring managers in your city<p>- Keep developing your skills, get on mainstream technologies right after they go mainstream&#x2F;hit critical, that will make it easier to not chase every shiny new fad. That will increase your marketability and make it easier for you to find opportunities that your peers will not<p>Above all, don&#x27;t let being an engineer blind you to company politics. Pay attention to whats happening, read the tea leaves so you can be ahead of bad news ESPECIALLY if you are an immigrant. This has served me well over the years. Once I quit a job because I got a bad feeling that new management cared more about head count than quality ... lo and behold, my replacement was laid off just 6 months after being hired.

At some point in the last 5 years, sitting in my pen--ahem, I mean cubicle--I came to the realization that the the subject noun of the term &quot;Human Resources&quot; is &quot;Resources&quot; not &quot;Humans&quot;. If you think your boss is your friend, he&#x27;s either a shitty boss or a shitty friend.

Sensible applications of loyalty are a two way street - are they paying you fairly, are they developing you as a person? If they&#x27;re not investing in you, being loyal to them is just stupidity. Match your commitments, that way if they stop you&#x27;re not left going - <i>&quot;But I gave you everything and now I&#x27;ve got nothing!&quot;</i><p>Your allies and your friends <i>don&#x27;t</i> weaken you or leave you to rot. Anyone who does isn&#x27;t worthy of your loyalty.<p>I&#x27;ve been laid off before, I didn&#x27;t feel bad about it - I was loyal to them and they were loyal to me, and when the relationship ended we went our separate ways, both the richer for it.

Could a mod link this to the original post instead of someone else&#x27;s mirror of it?<p><a href="http://heartmindcode.com/2013/08/16/loyalty-and-layoffs/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;heartmindcode.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;08&#x2F;16&#x2F;loyalty-and-layoffs&#x2F;</a>

I think there are three legitimate objects of loyalty in the proper order:<p>1. Loyalty to your work. Do a good job, take pride in it, try to always do better.<p>2. Loyalty to the customer. This goes without saying, but don&#x27;t let this make you do less of a good job.<p>3. Loyalty to the company. I disagree with the author in saying this is sick. However, it becomes sick when it is placed above a need to do a good job and take care of the customer&#x27;s needs.<p>Loyalty to the company is what glues together the other two into something productive, but it cannot stand on its own without degrading into petty politics.<p>However also for this to work, the company has to be loyal to the employees and this is harder and harder to find these days.

Neither employer nor employee is inherently owed loyalty, but the only way to earn loyalty is to give it in return. Sooner or later, one party is going to have to act irrationally if it wants that kind of relationship with the other.<p>A company that wants 1950s-style loyalty from its employees should be giving them 1950s-style loyalty. If you as a corporation would prefer layoffs to bankruptcy protection, then you do not measure up to that standard.

I would extend the author&#x27;s arguments to include loyalty to an entity whose interests aren&#x27;t exactly aligned with one&#x27;s own -- for example, a nation-state.<p>Not saying that loyalty in itself is bad, but blind loyalty is -- a symptom of which is accepting a leader&#x27;s words at face value.<p>Even nice doggies get put to sleep eventually.

I&#x27;m an hourly employee (functionally non-exempt salary). Whenever employers ask me for exempt salary, I quote an rate that is 1.5 to 3 times as much as I would earn if hourly non-exempt. This is part of my insurance policy, so I can make sure I can take care of myself when my company cant.<p>Now, while I realize I have a really unique skillset, and have project knowledge which will see me thru - when I have to take my 45 day break ahead, I realize I may not come back. This would make me sad, but I&#x27;m well taken care of by my own savings, and by unemployment.

How about being loyal to your customers? They&#x27;re depending on you. Even though their contract is with the corporation, it still feels bad to leave them in a bind.

I&#x27;m never loyal to a company, ever.<p>I may be loyal to employees of said company, if they, PERSONALLY, prove to be worth such loyalty.

<i>The people that work in the same room as you are real. It is totally okay to love them. In fact, I encourage it! Be loyal to them! Go to the mat for them. But for heaven’s sake, don’t be loyal to “The Team”.</i><p>I can&#x27;t speak for everyone, but the people _are_ what I am referring to when I speak of &quot;the team&quot;.

Surely a better scheme would be to have a company baseline wage. Before any lay-offs are made, all staff must have their wages reduced to that baseline. Once this allows growth, wages can be increased again?

I may be missing something here, but what if Janet had followed this advice?

This quote rings true, &quot;But anybody claiming to have loyalty to “The Team” is engaging in office politics.&quot;

The thing I&#x27;m struggling with, does this also apply to working for a non-profit whose mission you believe in?

woah... wait a second. Paid time off = no cashing of days remaining when you leave? Is that right? Just last month by Vacation + Sick days got converted to same number of PTO and the HR email made it sound great complete with congratulations!

As a good engineer, this person knows shit about politics.<p>When the company engineer claims he lacks loyalty, is not part of the company family, etc... He is not truly believing any of this either. He&#x27;s just out of ammunition to attack him with logic, so he goes with any pack instinct ad hominem.<p>And then writing this emotional piece about just ice the cake on how he&#x27;s sadly clueless on the matter. It&#x27;s like he&#x27;s trying to explain that someone who just called him a motherfucker how he is silly because you know, he&#x27;s gay so he could never like mothers or something. It&#x27;s all crazy and pointless to believe there&#x27;s logic in subjective pack mentality attacks.

What about getting paid in stock? Then should you have loyalty?