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Why Aren't There More Women Programmers?

39 点作者 gebe将近 12 年前

18 条评论

patmcc将近 12 年前
Good post in whole, but part of #3 really caught my eye:<p>&gt;&gt;When I go to Kindergarten Moms Night and someone asks what I do, &quot;computer programming&quot; usually ends the conversation<p>I don&#x27;t this is specific to women - I run into exactly the same thing talking about my tech job with friends, family, strangers, etc.<p>There&#x27;s also always an underlying question that gets avoided in these types of articles - what&#x27;s the &quot;correct&quot; percentage of people of a particular gender&#x2F;race&#x2F;whatever in a profession? Obviously we should aim for a society where no woman is pushed away from programming if that&#x27;s what she wants to do, but is there any reason to think every job should match society demographically?
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rayiner将近 12 年前
So I went to an undergrad for engineering, and my freshman class was 72% male, 28% female, and my major was probably 85% male, 15% female. At my first job, we never broke two women out of a team that was maybe a dozen engineers by the time we left. At my second job, there was briefly one woman but the rest of the time it was zero out of 8-9 engineers.<p>My law school class was 55% male, 45% female, and my firm was pretty close to even.<p>My experience makes me believe that the reason that there aren&#x27;t more women programmers is mostly that there aren&#x27;t more women programmers. I think men and women, generally, interact socially in different ways. By the time I left engineering, I found the fairly homogenous and almost exclusively-male mode of social interaction rather tiring. It was refreshing to be in an environment with a diversity of people who had different ways of interacting socially.<p>I don&#x27;t think most of the typical canards really matter. Yes, programming is a nerdy profession that rewards people who can work solitarily for long hours on detail-intensive work. But so is law, so is medicine, so is accounting, and those fields have almost even ratios of men and women. I don&#x27;t think there is anything about the work that deters women.
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jlees将近 12 年前
I&#x27;m not sure on #2. When I was a teenager I had no idea about tech conferences, open source figureheads, and I barely noticed the gender of writers. Do boys? Mom not programming, and not having any female friends&#x2F;relatives who do, seems more of an issue - and leads into #3.<p>I&#x27;m not arguing #2 isn&#x27;t a problem, though. Sadly, I&#x27;m not in tune with how kids get role models these days to have any useful suggestions how to fix it. I was a mentor for Technovation, teaching high school girls Android development, but by that age perhaps it&#x27;s too late.<p>I think there&#x27;s also an aspect of not realising what programming <i>is</i>, so not thinking you can do it because it seems a lot scarier than it really is.
skwirl将近 12 年前
It&#x27;s also difficult to make progress when you have certain self-aggrandizing individuals who are out there falsely claiming that software development is a den of misogyny. If you were a young woman considering going into software development and you read Jezebel earlier this year, you might be led to believe that female developers are subject to a constant barrage of sexual dick jokes and are fired if they complain about it.
krstck将近 12 年前
My entry into programming was through making website layouts as a teenager. This was back in the days of geocities, expage, angelfire. There were lots of girls around my age doing this kind of thing, making personal pages, fanpages, CSS templates for other people. Then livejournal appeared, and now tumblr. Some of us made the transition from CSS to learning Ruby on Rails, but not a lot. I don&#x27;t know why. But I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s fair to say that girls aren&#x27;t interested in code.
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unimpressive将近 12 年前
I remember when I went to interview to get into a computer repair class at the nearby trade school. Right before the interview a girl walked in and the instructor (who was herself a woman) immediately said &quot;Oh my god, a girl!&quot; (Or something else that was similarly disparaging. It&#x27;s hard to remember now.)<p>After the interview I asked why she said that, and her reply was something to the effect of &#x27;I have to prepare her for how the boys will act.&#x27;. It was a significant factor in my decision not to go.
kamaal将近 12 年前
The problem of representation of women, isn&#x27;t just in our industry. Nearly all branches of engineering are the very same. In fact I find software to be a far more attractive profession for women than other engineering branches.<p>In my total 4 years of engineering course. The branch with the least representation of girls was mechanical engineering, I say this because in all 4 years I didn&#x27;t see a single girl take up mechanical engineering, same with civil engineering. Electronic and Communication was a little better, the best was Computer science, which seem to have only girls.<p>But that&#x27;s sort of understandable, in the first year of engineering we had this subject called &#x27;machine shop&#x27;, you basically would have to build models with metal pieces, then there was a good enough amount of sheet metal work. You had to learn to use the hack saw, welding, soldering etc- there was also a good deal of carpentry. To give you a clue, even boys(most of them geeks and nerd types) from my branch(Electronics) found it exceedingly difficult to finish 40% of the models we were supposed to finish. They would be very physically tiring exercises, which we were never subjected to. Girls couldn&#x27;t manage even 10% of them, in fact many of us helped them personally so that they could get passing marks.<p>Now I understand why no girl would ever want to get into things like mechanical and civil engineering. You have to work in male dominated cultures, where the work is almost designed such that a man could excel doing it- while you struggle to catch up. And you will be facing outright physical limitations. Now imagine doing this for years, Its a deal breaker to even begin with.<p>Coming to programming, the problem begins only when the going gets tough. I&#x27;ve seen a good deal of representation of women in large companies. The problem starts when you get into the rockstar culture, where you are expected put 16 hrs&#x2F;day + traveling as a norm. When you start depicting whole night &#x27;hackdays&#x27; as a sign of coolness. When learning new stuff needlessly happens just because its new etc. Now you are setting up a culture which is difficult for most women who have kids and family.
joyeuse6701将近 12 年前
Make it appealing to girls. Before it was independent career woman. The general appeal today is successful female entrepreneur. Next may be passive income hacker? Just need one show&#x2F;movie to glamorize a self made woman via engineering and bam, you&#x27;ll get more interest, though it may be superficial. Who knows maybe you will never get the numbers you want because it is simply less appealing to women, much like nursing and grade school teaching may never appeal as much to men.
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NamTaf将近 12 年前
This is just a subset of the broader question of &quot;why aren&#x27;t there more women in tech?&quot;. I honestly think, in no small part, that the answer is &quot;because the tech hobby community is so toxic to women&quot;. Note that I don&#x27;t mean the professional industry, but rather more generally that women who may be interested in computers &#x2F; tech in general get zealously singled out and demeaned. This drives women away from exploring their interest and in turn cuts off any chance they&#x27;d have taken at turning that interest in to a career.<p>It&#x27;s sickening how toxic the community is to women. Misogyny is often a cornerstone of &#x27;internet humour&#x27; (e.g.: comments about getting back in the kitchen) and people act surprised when women are marginalised and driven away from indulging their interest in technology as a hobby. It&#x27;s so normalised that even other women repeat the misogynist comments. I&#x27;m sure there&#x27;s a fascinating psychology paper here on 21st century stockholm syndrome.<p>I really don&#x27;t understand how people can be surprised women are systematically driven from the tech industry when their exposure of it is so constantly toxic.<p>An excellent case in point: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian#Kickstarter_campaign_and_subsequent_harassment" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Anita_Sarkeesian#Kickstarter_c...</a><p>preemptive edit: Just to repeat, I don&#x27;t think that the professional industry is systemically misogynist. It&#x27;s the hobby community centred mainly around the internet (which is, let&#x27;s face it, the primary medium through which interest in tech and programming especially is explored) which kills any interest in the field before it can reach the stage of becoming a possible career option.
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pjbrunet将近 12 年前
Maybe it&#x27;s our prehistoric roots. You could compare programming to hunting: no talking.
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dibbsonline将近 12 年前
Why aren&#x27;t there more &lt;gender&gt; &lt;roles&gt;? female bricklayers male seamstresses and on and on and on.<p>Is it really a problem? People do what they want, less women want to program, I see no problem with this.
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graycat将近 12 年前
Because maybe a lot of women know some things the OP does not!<p>Before we ask women to charge into programming, we should be quite clear on why there are so few women in programming now and just what will happen to the women who go into programming based on our encouragement based on our guesses of what the situation will be like and what the results will be.<p>It took me a very long time to get some understanding of women. A first lesson is, in both obvious and deep ways, they are not much like men. In a word, they are <i>different</i>.<p>Be careful.
chacham15将近 12 年前
I agree with point #2 &quot;seeing people like me do it&quot; but even taken down a notch to exclude the difference in gender. Personally, I have two sisters both of whom do programming after seeing my dad and I both do it. The other variables in their cases are just like everyone else in this community which has the same percentage of women in cs than other places (i.e. not sv).
milliams将近 12 年前
*female<p>&#x27;women&#x27; is a noun, &#x27;female&#x27; is an adjective. We wouldn&#x27;t say &#x27;men programmers&#x27;, we say &#x27;male programmers&#x27;.
ddellacosta将近 12 年前
There&#x27;s a lot that can be said about this but I want to give a personal answer to a question that has come up in this thread already, and that comes up often in these kinds of discussions.<p>It&#x27;s usually framed as something like, &quot;why do we care if there are more women in the programming world or not?&quot; Here are a few answers that are true for me. Maybe these will resonate with some of you.<p>- I often meet women or read accounts written by women who struggle to simply exist in the world of programming without feeling like they are being called out as women all the time. This includes everything from being assumed to be ignorant of concepts to losing out on opportunities to being sexually harassed. As a male programmer, this makes me uncomfortable and unhappy as well--I want my female colleagues to feel welcomed and to equally &quot;own&quot; the identify of &quot;computer programmer&quot; (or software engineer, or what-have-you). Having more women programmers would help this, in many ways.<p>- I think it is possible we are missing out on some brilliant programmers coming into this field who could contribute things we haven&#x27;t yet conceived of. Having more women programmers is not going to upset the balance in a zero-sum game; it&#x27;s more for everyone. So having more women programmers could potentially help the world as well as provide all of us with more excellent colleagues.<p>- I would like to have more women colleagues because I enjoy the experience of working with women. Yes, I think women are different from men--but this is obvious if only because women will always experience the world differently from men. So I think having this perspective can only enrich a project and provide a more fertile ground for a successful project or team to grow.<p>I want to add one more thing. I get the sense that a lot of male commenters on HN feel immediately defensive about this subject, and feel like somehow they are going to lose something if they acknowledge that there is anything wrong or anything that could be fixed, or at worst, acknowledge that there is something that they could have handled better in the past.<p>But consider this: working in development, a concept that comes up again and again is software having a &quot;smell.&quot; It seems obvious to me that the constant issues that come up relating to sexism in the industry is a very strong smell, albeit within the social fabric of the larger programming community. And it&#x27;s equally obvious that the defensive, knee-jerk reaction is not productive. Consider, how would you approach this if it was a bug, and just wouldn&#x27;t go away? If you were a good developer, first you would spend serious time trying to understand the problem and dig into it deeply, before you started writing code willy-nilly, right?
pjbrunet将近 12 年前
Maybe my statuesque coder arms need some sexy recursive algorithm tattoos to flex in her general direction ;-)
georgiecasey将近 12 年前
oh great, it&#x27;s this thread again
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beachstartup将近 12 年前
why aren&#x27;t there more women ironworkers?<p>roofers?<p>plumbers?<p>auto mechanics?<p>machinists?<p>coal miners?<p>underwater welders?<p>oil riggers?<p>merchant marines?
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