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Javascript Frameworks Are Amazing and Nobody Is Happy

272 点作者 EvilTrout将近 12 年前

33 条评论

fizx将近 12 年前
Programming tends to this pattern where people get super-excited when a language gets a feature everyone else has taken for granted forever. It&#x27;s like a guy getting out of the hospital after shooting himself in the foot. You know what&#x27;s better? Not shooting yourself.<p>Congrats Javascript--on almost being as good at data-binding and layout as VB6! Me, I&#x27;m going to keep kvetching about javascript frameworks until flexbox is widely supported, the strongly-typed language flavor-of-the week actually is stable, and frameworks like angular don&#x27;t embrace silent failure modes as a feature.
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ZenoArrow将近 12 年前
To me, the issue isn&#x27;t that modern JavaScript frameworks are sub-optimal, but rather that proficiency in the high number of competing frameworks is a sizeable time sink that shouldn&#x27;t need to exist. These frameworks are essentially band-aids over the true issues in the core web development tools, and until that core matures to the point where the frameworks are unnecessary then you&#x27;ll still see people reluctant in investing much time in absorbing knowledge that is likely to rapidly become obsolete.
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dvt将近 12 年前
I think that what the &quot;problem&quot; <i>really</i> is, is that programming has become so accessible. Of course, I don&#x27;t mean that this is an actual problem, but just that with more people writing code, the community has more people being generally shitty.<p>Furthermore, the general shittiness of post-y2k developers has seeped into the corporate veins of tech companies everywhere. So this is why you see Go &quot;gunning&quot; for Ruby or Rust &quot;gunning&quot; for Go, or whatever. And I speak from experience. When I was in my late teens (I&#x27;m 27 now), I totally thought Javascript sucked; and, in many senses, it&#x27;s not an ideal language. But I mean, I was <i>really</i> out there with my shitty (and uninformed) opinion that JS sucks.<p>Fast-forward a couple of years after I forced myself to do a lot of development with many (many) languages -- as opposed to being force-fed X or Y language by Z company -- and I have a different outlook. There are very few languages (or frameworks, for that matter) that <i>suck</i> -- furthermore, saying X sucks is simply insulting the (probably much smarter than you) author of X. This doesn&#x27;t happen much on HN (people usually have well-thought out opinions) but it&#x27;s very apparent on SO or the myriad of other forums&#x2F;newsgroups.<p>I now love JS. I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s amazing or anything, but I&#x27;ve been having as much fun writing JS as I&#x27;ve had writing C (which is saying a lot -- C is <i>very</i> fun). If I <i>could</i> get a freebie, though, I&#x27;d have to say that C++ sucks :P<p>So I agree with the sentiment of the OP and I think this is more prevalent now rather than 10 or 20 years ago because we have a much larger community of developers. Which, in some ways, is good but in others can be bad.
qntmfred将近 12 年前
Along these same lines, I can&#x27;t even imagine what it must have been like to be a programmer (or any other kind of knowledge worker) before the web. You mean I have this problem and I need to wait 6 months for somebody to write a book about it, and then read the whole thing cover to cover in hopes that he&#x2F;she wrote about something pertaining to my problem? phfft this is bullshit
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surrealize将近 12 年前
It&#x27;s a cliche by now that oldsters always think that youngsters are spoiled by having it too easy. &quot;In my day, we had to walk to school uphill two miles in the snow&quot; etc. And, like so many other cliches, it&#x27;s true!<p>Things used to really suck, and now they&#x27;re a lot better. That happens every generation--mankind&#x27;s physical culture does keep on improving in a lot of ways. Older people are proud of all the progress they&#x27;ve made. And young people take the new and improved stuff for granted and complain.<p>But that complaining is a good thing! Expectations keep increasing with every generation. If we didn&#x27;t always have new people coming on scene and getting frustrated with the status quo, then we&#x27;d stagnate as a culture.<p>The kids are all right. It would be nice if they appreciated what they have more. On the other hand, they&#x27;ll get old and have the same experience too.
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ascendantlogic将近 12 年前
As a 35 year old developer who was using CSS and Javascript in the pre-jQuery days, this really strikes a chord with me. Things like Meteor and Angular and Bootstrap BLOW MY MIND. I understand this is the way of technology but truly we live in a gilded age of app development. Sometimes it&#x27;s nice to take a retrospective and think about how awesome things really are.
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pothibo将近 12 年前
I believe the problem with _every_ framework out there is that they focus too much on how they solve trivial problems and not enough on how you can use them in complex scenario.<p>I think people are pissed when they start with a new framework is the lack of ERROR messages.<p>I wished errors were more verbose. I don&#x27;t care if the error message takes 5 lines. When I&#x27;m used to a framework, i&#x27;ll know from the second word what is the error.<p>On the other hand, when I don&#x27;t know the framework, I have no ideas what is assumed and what isn&#x27;t. Print all the remotely possible culprit. That will give me an idea how it works.<p>Errors will help me learn and progress.
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gavinlynch将近 12 年前
tldr; it&#x27;s a satirical cross-section of programming and comedy, and is specifically a play on the classic Louis C K cellphones&#x2F;airplane rant as it pertains to javascript frameworks: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk</a>
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Zigurd将近 12 年前
There are two facts about Web apps that few people seem to be able to hold in their heads at the same time:<p>1. Web apps are incredibly useful and convenient. Web apps are always up to date and pervasive because the Web runtime is everywhere. Some apps only need ever be Web apps.<p>2. The Web was designed to be a feature-rich hypertext system, not an application runtime and system-wide UI framework. Web apps will never be as good as native apps, something that was rediscovered in mobile devices.<p>Both are true. Both will be true for a long time to come.
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acv将近 12 年前
Sooo, am I the only one on here who thinks this is really funny? Like laugh-out-loud funny? Like, literally right now there are 110 comments on this page about a light-hearted spoof and not one mention of the word funny.<p>Like I know you&#x27;re just dying to tell someone their argument is absurd, precisely backward, badly false, from another reality, or some other hyperlogical sounding construction that no human would ever actually use in normal conversation - but chill OUT. Do you really need to immediately jump into a flame war about BASIC?<p>Can&#x27;t you just chuckle at the fact that yeah, we are all kinda entitled turds form time to time when it comes to tech, and then like go about your day and build something and go home?<p>I mean come on -- &quot;It&#x27;s going to space, give it a sec.&quot; -- that&#x27;s funny.
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sergiotapia将近 12 年前
I&#x27;ve never met people like this before. Almost everybody who I&#x27;ve heard trash-talk a language or framework was either very new to it and felt frustrated, or just a bad programmer.<p>Having said that, not all JS frameworks are built the same. ;) And you&#x27;re entitled to have a preference and not be &quot;Louis CK&#x27;d&quot; into loving everything under the sky.
tn13将近 12 年前
I started off as a Rails web developer in 2007 and slowly moved to PHP and Javascript. A little before NodeJS got popular I was a full time JS developer mostly writing client side code.<p>When I started with NodeJS, I was like a kid in the candy store. Before I blinked there were hundreds of npm modules supporting everything including aws management to controlling robots.<p>I have tried a lot of nodejs web frameworks. They are all amazing and I wish them success but I have realized that there is nothing great to be gained by using JS at server side compared to using say rails.
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santoshalper将近 12 年前
Maybe they&#x27;re annoyed because even though the frameworks are great, they are still stuck programming in shitty JavaScript and they know there are about 1,000 better programming languages.
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daemonl将近 12 年前
Our customers demand more of us, we demand more of our frameworks.<p>It wasn’t long ago that building a site that worked on a mobile was the most fantastic and impressive thing they had ever seen. Before that, there weren’t even ‘mobiles’ to have ‘sites’ on.<p>If the demands put on programs were the same as they were 10, 20 years ago, I would have my week’s work done in 5 minutes. But it’s not amazing any more, it’s boring and usual and old as soon as it is released. Our customer or boss just saw a new example up on nvd3, so d3’s dead now, and you better have already learned nvd3 (that’s a pretty old example), oh and it still works on a mobile, and fills my retina display, right? Oh and it doesn’t move properly when I scroll on my android tablet. That’s the same as an iPad, right? Oh and John said it’s broken in IE.<p>Our demands come from our customer’s expectation that this stuff is easy now. And hells yeah it is SO much easier than it used to be, but it’s far from being as easy as they think it is.<p>We usually only have an hour to get going in a new framework, if it’s not clear after that, we move on, because something newer (better?) just hit #1 on HN.<p>But let’s remember how exiting all of this is. Programming has changed for the better. It’s cool and in demand now. People are paying us to do the cool things we used to dream about, they just might not be giving us quite enough time, so we blame the frameworks.
pspeter3将近 12 年前
I feel like part of the problem is that there seems to be a weird form of commodity fetishism that happens with front-end frameworks where your choice defines you as a developer. While that&#x27;s always been true for OS, language and text editor, it seems more inane when applied to front end frameworks. They all have their own use cases and the major three are all impressively written
toddh将近 12 年前
When I detect this attitude in myself it&#x27;s often because I&#x27;m thinking of these things as a means to an end instead of a thing in itself. So I get impatient because I WANT TO GET STUFF DONE RIGHT NOW and pick your framework is in my way. This a great reminder to step back, appreciate, and give props to all the hard work people do out there.
javajosh将近 12 年前
The best thing about JavaScript is jsfiddle and codepen. There&#x27;s really no equivalent for any other programming environment.
monokrome将近 12 年前
I loved JavaScript during what this calls the &quot;rotary phone&quot; era, and I&#x27;ll have to say that JavaScript &quot;frameworks&quot; haven&#x27;t come very far. They just grow as fast as the browsers do.<p>Browsers have gone far. Browsers are amazing. Frameworks are still boring.
gtrak将近 12 年前
My interpretation: javascript is slowly catching up to the rest of the world. It&#x27;s reach both makes it a lingua franca and slows it down. Maybe one day it will be suitable for real programming, if people who complain after 10 minutes would stop holding it back.
aznjons将近 12 年前
The drive of the hacker is to solve problems and find novel or efficient solutions to problems and the tools used to solve those problems.<p>It&#x27;s not surprising that this can be taken to the extreme as we strive to continually optimize our tools, which are especially flexible since they are spun out of almost pure abstraction.<p>A healthy dose of perspective is helpful to reminds us that at the end of the day we solve problems and make cool things.<p>Though dealing with poorly designed man-made abstractions can be frustrating, we are fortunate to have the opportunity to improve our tools and environments and it&#x27;s especially incredible how collaborative the effort is (open source) compared to some other industries.
DrewAllyn将近 12 年前
The people who complain about how things work are the people who make things better. If everyone was satisfied with jQuery and felt that JS development could stop after that then we wouldn&#x27;t be where we are today, and if everybody thinks that where we are now is fine then tomorrow will look exactly the same as today. I, for one, want tomorow to look different (and better) regardless of how rosy it looks today, so I will continue complaining. When I can, I will also do something about my complaints, and I do submit patches when I can, but unfortunately thats not always feasible.
ialex将近 12 年前
Haters gona hate. You can&#x27;t make everybody happy, but there are enough frameworks out there you pick one you like and let everybody do the same
locusm将近 12 年前
&quot;it’s wasted on the crappiest generation of just spoiled idiots that don’t care, because this is what people are like now&quot;<p>Louis CK sums it up better than I could ever articulate<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk&amp;feature=player_detailpage#t=35" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk&amp;feature=player_d...</a>
eponymous将近 12 年前
A million thumbs down for the author stealing Louie CK&#x27;s stand-up routine (<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk</a>) and reapplying it to Javascript in a way that just didn&#x27;t fit. Also nothing substantial was said. Boo!
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eonil将近 12 年前
No. Wrong. They&#x27;re not happy because it&#x27;s not amazing. Because they can sensing something you cannot sense.<p>Well, only for certain type of apps - static input&#x2F;output forms -, this maybe true. But none of them is amazing for any further type of apps.<p>You can be happy because you don&#x27;t know any <i>further</i>.
teeja将近 12 年前
&quot;Wow, Catullus, thanks for the chariot ride ... the last time I had to run for a day and a half and .... Recedite! excreta caballus!&quot;<p>&quot;Wow, beaming to the surface is so much faster than that goddamn shuttle. And ... hey! This shirt wasn&#x27;t this shade of blue before! Mother$#)!($&amp;!&quot;
mmanfrin将近 12 年前
We&#x27;re also doing a magnitude more with these frameworks than was ever possible before. Tools are better and bigger, but so are roles and responsibilities. There are different sets of problems that now need to be solved.
bobwaycott将近 12 年前
&gt; <i>&quot;Well, I can&#x27;t do any more things now. I can&#x27;t do any more things.&quot;</i><p>I just love that. I&#x27;ve encountered that attitude so many times.
dalacv将近 12 年前
You should give more credit to the original creator of these ideas. Put the link at the top and at least mention him in your article.
cdl将近 12 年前
Let&#x27;s not forget about the awesome tooling that is available and actively development for JS web development (yes, Yeoman).
oscargrouch将近 12 年前
different languages tend to attract different personalities eg. people from c&#x2F;c++ are more conservatives and like to know the internals of everything..<p>Javascript(PHP?) tend to attract people who wants instant reward, without too much work..<p>to point out that a little more is easy to see that even here at HN.. when a new project come from c&#x2F;c++&#x2F;go etc.. the tools are more sophisticated and take more planning, labor and research to see the light.. so this kind of projects tend to endure a little bit more<p>on the other half javascripters launch are more fragmented and you see a lot of iterations over the same problems already solved by previous framework as just because its a matter of taste combining the technologies one like most..<p>i cant say this for every developer of course, im sure there are people away from this pattern.. but its a just a feeling from the outside.. i come from other generation i guess.. ut when i was younger pascal, delphy and php were cool and just get things done.. i think its also a question of age.. when you are younger you are more pragmatic, and want everything fast and instant.. Javascript is that platform now.. the one who tends to call the younger and people who are starting programming..<p>this is not a critic, and not a bad thing at all.. its just more a general observation.. so excuse-me if i was unfair in anyway (thats the problem with generalizations though)<p>Well the problem with pragmatism its just that... people start doing things with a low critical thinking about the tool they are using.. they tend to experiment less with other languages and the different solutions those languages may point out..<p>so the problem pointed out by miguel de icaza over the callbacks.. they were spread all around in the code like if they were the solution for everything.. or just _to get things done_<p>to be fair this is not _just_ a problem of javascript or another language.. its technology in general and the open source..<p>people should be more cooperative and less competitive.. why create a new blog engine just because you want to use another template system and do not try to help the other project by adding the template system you like..<p>there are much of ego in technology today.. people want to be the new linus torvalds, or the new steve jobs.. but behind all of those big stars, and what they acomplished, there A LOT of people working in the same project , all together.. so its the real spirit of cooperation behind it, even if they dont tkae the medals.. they deserve it they are also the everyday heros<p>you can argue that this is may outside of the scope of this post.. but im trying to point what i think are the real reasons, of why those things are happening.. and its not enough to look just at technology.. we need to take a look at the people behind it and how they move..<p>just my 2 dollars (because this comment its a little big for 2 cents)
f055将近 12 年前
People are spoiled easily. And contrary to common belief, programmers are people too.
ultimatedelman将近 12 年前
This is incredible, and oh so true