TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Urbit: A clean-slate functional OS

262 点作者 tsax超过 11 年前

42 条评论

urbit超过 11 年前
A better link would be the front page: <a href="http://www.urbit.org/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.urbit.org&#x2F;</a><p>I guess on the Internets, you never release anything - it&#x27;s released for you. Please be warned, (a) the doc is incomplete, (b) if you create an Urbit ship you&#x27;ll eventually have to destroy it, as we don&#x27;t have continuity yet.
评论 #6439913 未加载
评论 #6442020 未加载
评论 #6439624 未加载
saidajigumi超过 11 年前
For a project ostensibly inspired by K&amp;R C, the copy on this site is <i>amazingly</i> opaque and full of its own rhetoric. Recommendation: delete all the linguistic posturing and get down to the hard work of casting light on your ideas. Let that speak for itself.<p>By way of example, the K&amp;R C book had a beautiful clarity and ability to fluidly move between the realms of reference, spec, and tutorial. If you&#x27;re going to hold K&amp;R C up as a model, you&#x27;d do well to mimic its documentation philosophy.
评论 #6439941 未加载
评论 #6442269 未加载
评论 #6439923 未加载
评论 #6441170 未加载
zzzmarcus超过 11 年前
Just some background, this is by Mencius Moldbug, a.k.a. Curtis Yarvin, a.k.a. C. Guy Yarvin of Unqualified Reservations fame. It&#x27;s been in the works for a long time and is certainly a serious project.<p><a href="http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-programming-from.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com&#x2F;2010&#x2F;01&#x2F;urbit-f...</a><p><a href="http://moronlab.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;moronlab.blogspot.com&#x2F;</a>
评论 #6441592 未加载
评论 #6490862 未加载
colanderman超过 11 年前
&quot;&quot;&quot;<i>Its self-compiling kernel, 7000 lines of code, specifies Hoon unambiguously; there is no Hoon spec.</i>&quot;&quot;&quot;<p>You realize there&#x27;s such a thing as over-specifying something, right? You realize that using source code as a spec does this?<p>If you don&#x27;t realize; consider that non-data aspects of a program, such as runtime and memory usage and bug compatibility, can sometimes form part of a specification, and sometimes don&#x27;t. A specification says as much what is <i>not</i> required of an implementation as what <i>is</i> required. By claiming your one true implementation is <i>the</i> spec, one has no means of ascertaining what behavior is incidental, and what is actually required&#x2F;able to be relied upon.<p>I&#x27;m not normally an XKCD fan, but this strip sums it up perfectly: <a href="http://xkcd.com/1172/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;xkcd.com&#x2F;1172&#x2F;</a><p>.<p>&quot;&quot;&quot;<i>Hoon can be classified as a pure, strict higher-order static type-inferred functional language, with co&#x2F;contra&#x2F;bivariance and genericity. However, Hoon does not use lambda calculus,</i>&quot;&quot;&quot;<p>A higher-order functional language does not &quot;use&quot; the mathematical definition of higher-order functions? In that case, what do you mean by &quot;higher-order functional language&quot;?<p>EDIT: I was going to make an analogy to the hypothetical claim that language X&#x27;s arithmetic system doesn&#x27;t use Church numerals (i.e. the mathematical formulation of natural numbers)… <i>but Hoon is actually implemented using Church arithmetic</i>. Go figure.<p>.<p>&quot;&quot;&quot;<i>unification,</i>&quot;&quot;&quot;<p>By what mechanism does Hoon implement type inference? Honestly, that&#x27;s kind of like saying Hoon doesn&#x27;t use, say, queues. Great, but, why?<p>.<p>&quot;&quot;&quot;<i>or other constructs from “PL theory.”</i>&quot;&quot;&quot;<p>Disdainful much? I&#x27;m really curious what&#x27;s the background behind the scare quotes here.<p>.<p>EDIT: Just to be clear, I&#x27;m not claiming your project is uninteresting or not worth your while. I just feel you&#x27;re being overly dismissive of the, let&#x27;s say &quot;traditional&quot; schools of thought, with invalid justification.
评论 #6441181 未加载
评论 #6441199 未加载
jsd1982超过 11 年前
I was with you til you introduced the Hoon syntax. Why ruin a great concept with a shit language? WHAT IS WRONG WITH LANGUAGE DESIGNERS?! Just come up with a sane language with a sane syntax on a great platform. This is apparently asking a lot. It&#x27;s not fucking rocket science.
评论 #6439592 未加载
eli_gottlieb超过 11 年前
<i>Hoon is a high-level language which defines itself in Nock. Its self-compiling kernel, 7000 lines of code, specifies Hoon unambiguously; there is no Hoon spec. Hoon can be classified as a pure, strict higher-order static type-inferred functional language, with co&#x2F;contra&#x2F;bivariance and genericity. However, Hoon does not use lambda calculus, unification, or other constructs from “PL theory.” Hoon also excels at handling and validating untyped data, a common task on teh Internets. Its syntax is entirely novel and initially quite frightening.</i><p>Crank detected. Homing in for the kill.
评论 #6439489 未加载
gwern超过 11 年前
&gt;I ate something I shouldn&#x27;t have the other day and ended up having this surreal dream where Mencius Moldbug had gotten tired of the state of the software industry and the Internet and had made his personal solution to it all into an actual piece of working software that was some sort of bizarre synthesis of a peer-to-peer identity and distributed computing platform, an operating system and a programming language. Unfortunately, you needed to figure out an insane system of phoneticized punctuation that got rewritten into a combinator grammar VM code if you wanted to program anything in it. I think there even was a public Github with reams of code in it, but when I tried to read it I realized that my computer was actually a cardboard box with an endless swarm of spiders crawling out of it while all my teeth were falling out, and then I woke up without ever finding out exactly how the thing was supposed to work.<p><a href="http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/ipu/open_thread_september_2329_2013/9szc" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;lesswrong.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;discussion&#x2F;lw&#x2F;ipu&#x2F;open_thread_septemb...</a>
yebyen超过 11 年前
I distinctly get the impression that the authors of this project will already know what Lojban is. This language (especially when you get to the part about reserved words, actually made up with special characters as runes, and how to pronounce them) made me think of the structure of Lojban right away.<p>For anyone who hasn&#x27;t heard of it, <a href="http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tlg.uci.edu&#x2F;~opoudjis&#x2F;lojbanbrochure&#x2F;lessons&#x2F;</a><p>Urbit of course having the advantage that it can be programmed in... the video is very cool!
评论 #6441113 未加载
评论 #6441034 未加载
评论 #6441227 未加载
FeepingCreature超过 11 年前
Well, I&#x27;ve read most the docs, let&#x27;s say _skimmed_ the code examples, and I think you&#x27;re a very smart, competent engineer with a sense of what makes for good language syntax that is utterly, incomprehensibly alien to me. So I guess, martian-language mission accomplished?
fyolnish超过 11 年前
This is art.<p>&quot;There is never a reason to program in Nock. Except to learn Nock.&quot; Classic
quanticle超过 11 年前
I love the project concept. A toy functional OS would be an admirable counterpart to e.g. MINIX. That said, I have one minor quibble:<p><i>A programming language is called a language for a reason - it should activate the human linguistic lobes.</i><p>Another programmer said this, a long time ago, and that&#x27;s how we ended up with Perl. Please don&#x27;t seek to emulate Larry Wall. Perl is great for quick automation, but anything complicated built with Perl quickly converges to unintelligible line noise (barring the exercise of zen-like discipline). If you&#x27;re making something for beginners, please, please, give them the tools to build abstractions in a consistent and understandable manner.
评论 #6440408 未加载
评论 #6441622 未加载
urbit超过 11 年前
A demo video: <a href="http://vimeo.com/75312418" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;vimeo.com&#x2F;75312418</a>
评论 #6442139 未加载
评论 #6440348 未加载
noonespecial超过 11 年前
With all that jargon I was expecting a set up for a punch line at the end. Don&#x27;t nock it so hoon, it&#x27;s not done jet. Ha!
评论 #6440810 未加载
state超过 11 年前
If ever there was a right attitude about bringing a radical project in to the world: this is it.<p>I just spent 15 minutes just _reading_ the documentation. Because it&#x27;s _interesting_. That never happens.
agentultra超过 11 年前
This is really, really neat.<p>I really like the concepts in Avro and Urbit. Particularly interesting for me is the checkpoint&#x2F;replay, distributed version control, and neighbours.<p>This is a really cool experiment!
评论 #6439547 未加载
tlb超过 11 年前
You say addition is O(n^2), but I think you can write an O(n) addition with only increment, recursion, and equality testing.<p>In Python syntax:<p><pre><code> def add(a, b): return add_r(a, b, 0) def add_r(a, b, c): if b == c: return a else: return add_r(a, b, c+1) +1</code></pre>
评论 #6439691 未加载
评论 #6439710 未加载
评论 #6440744 未加载
评论 #6439726 未加载
theonewolf超过 11 年前
I&#x27;m pretty sure this is a giant joke ? Or nothing is implemented yet (and still, kind of jokish especially in description)?
评论 #6439365 未加载
ajanuary超过 11 年前
So rather than having a lengthy standard it has lots of small non-standardized and brittle performance optimizations?<p>I remain skeptical over whether this tradeoff is worth it.
评论 #6439513 未加载
评论 #6440346 未加载
评论 #6439787 未加载
cldr超过 11 年前
&gt; Hoon is a keyword-free language - any alphanumeric text in the program is part of the program. Where other languages have reserved words, Hoon has squiggles.<p>But... why?
评论 #6440437 未加载
评论 #6442561 未加载
nutate超过 11 年前
I really like this. I hope some younger people with more time on their hands push this farther.
评论 #6439204 未加载
arh68超过 11 年前
Would you mind doing lots more screencasts? Maybe writing a jet, rigging a test, profiling, and maybe a bunch of other things. I very much like your demo style, and I have a hunch these docs are going to be pretty dense. ;)
jpt4超过 11 年前
From pedestal to pinnacle, all things are quantum, not classical. The metaphor that better avoids scaling obsolescence for your project is perhaps Bohmian, rather than Maxwellian.
dmytrish超过 11 年前
Codex Seraphinianus of programming?<p>I think it&#x27;s a true piece of postmodern art.
samograd超过 11 年前
<p><pre><code> So if we had to read the above decrement...we’d say: “luslus dec sigfas cen dec bartis a tis pat sigbar soq dec soq ketcab pat wutgal tis pel zero a per tislus b tis pat barhep wutcol tis pel a lus pel b per per b buc pel b lus pel b per per.” </code></pre> Absolute brilliance.
eonil超过 11 年前
Though I couldn&#x27;t understand them fully...<p>The names are awesome! The concepts are awesome! And the music is awesome!!!
评论 #6442041 未加载
offensivehandle超过 11 年前
Okay, since you want comments here, here I&#x27;ll put mine.<p>The reason you were so successful in coming up with a new political philosophy is that your &quot;I&#x27;m a Martian&quot; trick got you think thoughts that no respectable person would be caught dead thinking.<p>There aren&#x27;t the same taboos in computer system design, so while you can refer to the systems people use every day as gigabytes of, what was it, of ass fucking more ass, there&#x27;s nothing you say that I haven&#x27;t already heard.<p>I&#x27;m still waiting for the Python of functional programming. Paul Graham announced Arc when I was in middle school. Maybe it will be released as the scripting system in Half-Life 3.<p>Being an alien from Alpha Centauri, and observing the growing collection of programming languages, what do you think people keep designing new ones for? Why do some Urplatians argue for Scheme and other Urplatians for Python?<p>Rather than asking the question of &#x27;what is a programming language&#x27;, and trying to design the axiomatically simplest possible thing, try asking the question of &#x27;how do people use programming languages&#x27;.<p>Is your system a bit of syntax regularization away from the pseudocode people scribble on paper to explain algorithms to each other? No, that&#x27;s Python.<p>Is your system something that compiles down to use the bare metal to its fullest potential while maintaining as much creature comforts as possible? No, that&#x27;s C++.<p>Is your system something with an ancient history of having a solid ABI, that in fact every other language&#x27;s ABI is described with? No, that&#x27;s C.<p>Is your system a heap of cruft upon kludges with the original intention of providing programming access to a hypertext document? That&#x27;s Javascript.<p>I wouldn&#x27;t want to write a regex as anything but a regex.<p>In conclusion, you&#x27;re asking a question that&#x27;s been asked before and getting an answer that&#x27;s been gotten before. But, maybe it is finally time for functional programming to come back. Maybe you&#x27;re a popular enough guy to get people to use your system.
评论 #6464638 未加载
alfredjaynock超过 11 年前
So this is what moldbug does in his spare time.
melloclello超过 11 年前
Hey Moldy I just want to say &#x27;ur-bit&#x27; is a pretty cool name B-)
cdcarter超过 11 年前
I can&#x27;t tell what I&#x27;m more confused&#x2F;impressed by, Hoon or the social model. Either way, I&#x27;ve got a destroyer and now I&#x27;m trying to understand just how zod works.
mhartl超过 11 年前
Congrats on the launch (even if teh Internets did it for you)!
dreen超过 11 年前
Love the fact you used music by the god of ambient, Bran Eno.
wgd超过 11 年前
The more I think about it the more I really like the whole &quot;Jets&quot; concept (although I&#x27;m not sold on the name, I&#x27;d love to learn that it&#x27;s a known concept in the PL field with a nicer name). I&#x27;d like to see how such an approach would work out for optimizing something more &quot;fundamental&quot; like the Binary Lambda Calculus.
评论 #6441935 未加载
JulianMorrison超过 11 年前
I love this concept of jets and how it allows a &quot;completely isolated&quot; VM to magically grow connections to the real world.
perlgeek超过 11 年前
A VM that can be precisely described in 200 words? Does that include the IO subsystem? I have my doubts that it&#x27;s possible to describe a full set of IO operations that any modern VM needs in so few words, just because of the wealth of features that you usually need (file system access, sockets (TCP and UDP), pipes, IPC, ...)
sr-ix超过 11 年前
I dig the Borges references riddled about.
0xdeadbeefbabe超过 11 年前
Reminds me of the punchline, &quot;consider a spherical cow&quot;<p>&gt; To a Pascal purist, to anyone who thinks mathematically, this seemed hideous. C isn’t really a high-level language at all - it’s a glorified macro assembler. Mankind retreats to the cave.<p>Leaky abstractions are hideous too, don&#x27;t you think?
sz4kerto超过 11 年前
Astonished.<p>Reminds me a bit of A+, however. :)
quarterto超过 11 年前
<p><pre><code> Hoon also excels at handling and validating untyped data, a common task on teh Internets. </code></pre> Not sure if satire?
batemanesque超过 11 年前
using &quot;teh Internets&quot; on yr front page is a great way to put off anyone who doesn&#x27;t subscribe to calcified &quot;geek culture&quot;
jyf1987超过 11 年前
so its root in forth?
dancecodes超过 11 年前
without flash of course there
dancecodes超过 11 年前
video not work in ff linux
评论 #6448479 未加载