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The San Francisco Exodus

212 点作者 blackjack48超过 11 年前

34 条评论

crazygringo超过 11 年前
&gt; <i>To subsidize affordable homes for 100,000 people would cost $25 billion. So yes, we should build as much subsidized affordable housing as we can.</i><p>What?! Why on earth would I want my tax dollars subsidizing your rent? I mean, charity to the poor, homeless, etc. is one thing (it&#x27;s good), but subsidizing your rent so you can be closer to boutique coffee shops? Instead of, you know, helping the truly needy get health care? Or investing in education? Gimme a break.<p>&gt; <i>If we want to actually make the city affordable for most people—a place where a young person or an immigrant can move to pursue their dreams</i><p>Why does San Fran specifically have to be that place? The Bay Area&#x27;s a big place.<p>By the end of the article, the author&#x27;s right about needing a more integrated metropolitan policy, but this attitude that &quot;everyone deserves to live in San Francisco, even people with no money&quot; gets tiring after a while. Neighborhoods and cities gentrify. People move elsewhere, to the new-and-upcoming-and-more-interesting neighborhoods&#x2F;cities. Places change. That&#x27;s just how it is.
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bronbron超过 11 年前
I&#x27;ve long thought that the bay area&#x27;s major problem is not necessarily problems with San Francisco proper (though the strong aversion to high-rises while complaining about the increasingly cut-throat and expensive real estate market is hilarious to me), but that the &quot;outer boroughs&quot; are so incredibly unattractive because the transit system is incredibly inadequate.<p>Living in Queens, Brooklyn, hell even Jersey is an incredibly reasonable option if you live in New York. You trade some commuting time for lower prices, and certainly Flushing doesn&#x27;t have the same appeal as SoHo. But it&#x27;s never a question of &quot;oh my god it&#x27;s after midnight how am I going to get home?&quot; like I experienced when living in the bay area.<p>It almost seems like San Francisco has a huge aversion to becoming a metropolis, but the problem is that the city really doesn&#x27;t have a choice in the matter.
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ghshephard超过 11 年前
I lived in Oakland (17th, on Lake Merritt) back in 97&#x2F;98, coming in from Canada and attracted by the low rent. I got the hell out of there as quickly as possible (moved to Sunnyvale) - Every night consisted me of taking my life into my own hands as I tried to walk the 5 or so blocks from Bart to my apartment.<p>A week ago, after not having visited for about 10 years, I toured the old neighborhood and was <i>astonished</i> at how much it had changed - it was after dark on a friday night - and there were actually a <i>lot</i> of people out, walking around the lake, restaurants open.<p>HUGE shift in gentrification of the area. This is a very positive impact of the San Francisco housing situation.
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blackjack48超过 11 年前
If any SF residents agree with the sentiment of this article, I&#x27;d recommend voting in the upcoming election. Props B &amp; C will allow a project with new housing, retail, and open space to be built downtown. I support the project not because it&#x27;s perfectly designed, but because it would set a terrible precedent for future development in the city if opponents successfully use the referendum process to block it. Ironically, many of the same people opposed to the project are the ones who are complaining the most about rising rents. Even though the project certainly isn&#x27;t low- or middle-income housing, it will relieve some of the demand that would otherwise be placed on housing for lower incomes.
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ajiang超过 11 年前
I&#x27;ve always wondered why more people don&#x27;t live in Oakland or Berkeley, which are both a relatively short commute to downtown SF. The housing prices are significantly cheaper, and especially in Berkeley, there seems to be a strong tech community.<p>Without going into all of my guesses as to why this hasn&#x27;t happened in droves, I think one of the larger reasons is the access to cheap transportation back to those areas at night. BART stops too early, so for the younger crowd that likes to stay out, it&#x27;s too expensive to constantly take a $40-60 ride out of SF. Without the advent of additionally public transportation, would it be economically viable to provide a paid shuttle service to and from SF &#x2F; Berkeley &#x2F; Oakland?
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integraton超过 11 年前
The whole western side of the city could really use some development. Nothing there is particularly nice as it is now. A lot of units don&#x27;t even have laundry machines in the buildings, so people end up spending thousands per month on rent while still using laundromats. The location, however, is amazing given the proximity to the parks and beaches, and there are solid commercial arteries. There&#x27;s not much character there, and almost everything is relatively new, built within the past century.
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bluedino超过 11 年前
&gt;&gt; If we want to actually make the city affordable for most people—a place where a young person or an immigrant can move to pursue their dreams, &gt;&gt; a place a parent can raise kids and not have to spend every minute at work—we have to fix the supply problem.<p>Why? Why can&#x27;t it stay the playground of the rich and people who are trying to pursue their dreams can live in &lt;insert name of nearby city&gt;<p>&gt;&gt; Subsidizing affordable homes for 10,000 families comes at a price of tag of $2.5 billion. &gt;&gt; So yes, we should build as much subsidized affordable housing as we can.<p>No. While I am for subsidized housing, I don&#x27;t feel it should be done in extremely rich areas just for the heck of it. I&#x27;m not saying to start housing projects where nobody wants to live, but there&#x27;s no sense in burning money to build them where costs are extraordinary.
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r0h1n超过 11 年前
Related: NYT just a few days back on &quot;London&#x27;s Great Exodus&quot; - <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/13/opinion/sunday/londons-great-exodus.html?_r=0" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;10&#x2F;13&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;sunday&#x2F;londons-gre...</a><p>&gt;&gt; The gap between London prices and those of the rest of the country is now at a historic high, and there is only one way to explain it. London houses and apartments are a form of money.
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steven2012超过 11 年前
My wife and I are blessed to be bottom-end 1%-ers, and even we could not afford to live in SF, so we moved down into the peninsula. Well, we might be able to afford it if we got a crippling mortgage, but then we couldn&#x27;t afford day care for our kids, and the 1hr+ commutes would have wreaked havoc on our lives.<p>You can&#x27;t raise a family in SF without making enough money to afford a $1.4M house, and spending $2000&#x2F;month on private school per kid because the SF schools have become really horrible (due to SF political stupidity).
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peterwwillis超过 11 年前
See, this is why I love Baltimore. We&#x27;ve got charm out the ass AND our rents are low.<p>Quite frankly i&#x27;m disappointed in how cartoonish SF&#x27;s neighborhoods seem. Here&#x27;s the hippie burner neighborhood, and here&#x27;s the spanish hipster neighborhood, and here&#x27;s the rich white boating neighborhood, and here&#x27;s the dingy chinese black market neighborhood, and here&#x27;s the financial district complete with skyscrapers and shops that close at 6pm. It&#x27;s like a dirty spicy version of DC.
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songzme超过 11 年前
I just bought a house in Berkeley. I wanted to buy a condo in SF, but for the same price of a 2 bedroom condo in SF with 1200 sqft I could buy a house in berkeley with 6700sq ft lot size with 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms and a huge backyard all to myself. Even if I had all the money in the world, I&#x27;ll buy rather buy a house in berkeley over a condo in SF. There are plenty of restaurants around berkeley, and many places to hang out. The only thing I&#x27;m missing out if I live in Berkeley is all the awesome tech events in SF.
auctiontheory超过 11 年前
The article mentions New York. One difference between SF and NYC is that public transport in NYC is at least 10X better. Especially as people spread out, that makes a big difference to quality of life.
11001超过 11 年前
Given this, and the recent article on &quot;The London exodus&quot;, I&#x27;ll just leave this new online course here because it may be interesting to some: <a href="https://www.coursera.org/course/designingcities" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.coursera.org&#x2F;course&#x2F;designingcities</a>
SurfScore超过 11 年前
People keep talking about the rising prices, but what is being done? What CAN be done? Its supply and demand. San Francisco will always be expensive because it is a desirable location for certain groups of high-earning people.<p>Being &quot;progressive&quot; is great, but we live in the real world and if you refuse to do things to lower prices in the name of culture, prices will keep going up. Ironically, this will also hurt, if not destroy, the &quot;culture&quot; that they&#x27;re trying to protect in the first place.
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cmbaus超过 11 年前
Subsidizing is NOT the answer. This will drive up prices for everyone living above subsidies. The problem is demand WAY outstrips housing supply. In my opinion the one thing that could kill the Bay Area economy is the aversion to residential construction.<p>Housing stock on the Geary corridor could be easily increased, and even a modest improvement to the transit system in that area could make a big difference.<p>It is absolutely crazy to artificially restrict residential building in areas where there is high employment demand. It is almost like we want to prevent economic growth.<p>The US is a crazy place. We complain that there isn&#x27;t enough economic growth, but when it happens, we put in all kinds of restrictions that limit it.
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bparsons超过 11 年前
I am always baffled at how other people are baffled that desirable places to live are more expensive than less desirable places.
vondur超过 11 年前
Regarding people moving to Oakland, there has been some people here talking about how bad the crime was there. Then again to me, San Francisco is a really dirty city with a ton of homeless people. I&#x27;m from Socal, so I&#x27;m not unfamiliar with the homeless, I&#x27;ve just never seen them concentrated like they are in San Francisco.
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subpixel超过 11 年前
I was surprised to learn about the level of disfunction in SF government (which of course includes zoning): <a href="http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-12-16/news/the-worst-run-big-city-in-the-u-s/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sfweekly.com&#x2F;2009-12-16&#x2F;news&#x2F;the-worst-run-big-ci...</a>
Futurebot超过 11 年前
There are a couple of ways to alleviate this:<p>1) Build higher. A lot higher.<p>2) Massively increase supply.<p>Put in place a regulation that says all new buildings must be X stories high (20,40,60, whatever.) Along with that, include a regulation that force said buildings to fit in with the neighbhorhood look. UWS and the West Village here in NYC have great examples of extremely tall buildings that are not Jetson&#x27;s-style eyesores.<p>Also put in place a regulation that says existing building that can be built higher (while keeping the existing external facade) should be. Where this isn&#x27;t possible, knock it down and replace it with a building that keeps the old facade.<p>Change the zoning restrictions and regulations to allow the above, and supply will go up, prices will (eventually) come down, and the neighbhorhood looks will remain similar. Everyone gets some of what they want, and the place stays diverse, vibrant, and does not force local workers to deal with punishing commutes just so they can do their jobs.<p>The above applies just as much to NYC or any other large city that is holding back this kind of development. As per the UN:<p>&quot;In 1950, one-third of the world’s people lived in cities. Just 50 years later, this proportion has risen to one-half and will continue to grow to <i>two-thirds, or 6 billion people, by 2050</i>. Cities are now home to half of humankind.&quot; Policies need to change to deal with this new reality.
geebee超过 11 年前
This article makes an interesting comparison between San Francisco and Seattle.<p>&quot;San Francisco has produced an average of 1,500 new housing units per year. Compare this with Seattle (another 19th century industrial city that now has a tech economy), which has produced about 3,000 units per year over the same time period (and remember it&#x27;s starting from a smaller overall population base). While Seattle decided to embrace infill development as a way to save open space at the edge of its region and put more people in neighborhoods where they could walk, San Francisco decided to push regional population growth somewhere else.&quot;<p>Interesting point, but are we comparing apples-to-apples? Here&#x27;s the wikipedia page for Seattle:<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Seattle</a><p>land area is 142 sq miles, current population density is 7,402&#x2F;sq mi .<p>For San Francisco, we get:<p><a href="https://www.google.com/#q=wikipedia+san+francisco" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;#q=wikipedia+san+francisco</a><p>land area is 46.87 sq mi, population density is 17,620&#x2F;sq mi.<p>Now, the article did mention &quot;infill&quot; which sounds more urban, so maybe there&#x27;s a difference in the city and county of Seattle? I don&#x27;t really know how that works up there. San Francisco is a very rare case where the city and county are the same. The article doesn&#x27;t seem clear about this - how are we defining &quot;Seattle&quot; for the purposes of this article? If we cherry picked a 142 square mile area around SF, I think we could probably substantial construction and growth. In some ways, the article even goes on to mention this by talking about how SF and Oakland aren&#x27;t part of the same city, but that this is where the growth is starting to happen.<p>SF is at the point where there isn&#x27;t much left to be infilled. There certainly is some, but by and large, you&#x27;d have to tear something down to build something up - at least to a much larger extent than cities that get to be defined as a 150 square mile area or more.<p>I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s much to be done here... but I think people are coming down pretty hard on SF. My guess is that you could easily circle 48 square miles of most major cities with comparable population density that haven&#x27;t allowed much construction in the last 50 years or so, and you could easily circle 150 square miles around SF that make it look like it has pursued rapid growth policies. The difference is that because of the way borders work in the bay area, SF appears to be hostile to development because the new growth happens elsewhere.
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stevewilber超过 11 年前
It&#x27;s really refreshing to see some intelligent commentary on the issues SF is facing, as opposed to the mindless tech-bashing that has been going on in the local media.<p>The only way to have a meaningful impact on housing prices is to increase supply.
pconf超过 11 年前
This is typical real-estate developer rhetoric &quot;we can continue growing forever&quot;. Don&#x27;t look behind the curtain, though, at the real reason redeveloped neighborhoods are sometimes more affordable i.e., you get what you pay for. IMO not every city is well served by demolishing large tracts of historic buildings for the glass-facade utilitarian apartment buildings predicated on Quonset hut structural engineering principles (cheap, fast, profitable, not to be confused with architecture). Let the developers work where they&#x27;re needed, Brisbane, Millbrae, SSF, etc. but leave San Francisco&#x27;s character and beautiful neighborhoods to those who appreciate _living_ in them (vs profiting off of them).<p>The Examiner did a great article on the damage done to the City by redevelopment of the type this article advocates, in the 50s and 60s. Seems now to be available at USA Today: <a href="http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-11-09-2450995649_x.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;usatoday30.usatoday.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;nation&#x2F;2008-11-09-245099...</a> IMO, if you want to see exactly what Gabriel Metcalf is talking about go to the City&#x27;s Western Addition and while there ask yourself if it was worth it.
CalRobert超过 11 年前
Perhaps if the cities to the south of SF weren&#x27;t so stultifyingly boring, people wouldn&#x27;t feel so compelled to live in the city. Imagine you&#x27;re 25 and single, do you really want to live in low density single-family housing? Hellholes like Fremont? Unfortunately zoning laws and nimbys prevent the construction of livable, high density housing in favor of more suburban prisons.
sAuronas超过 11 年前
I used to build mixed-income housing (one third subsidizes public housing units, one third 80% of area median and one third market rate) for a private partnership to redevelop Chicago&#x27;s public housing. I can tell you this...fail. Does not compute. Does not work--socially (as an experiment) or financially. The best thing to do is to give mayors the ability to build and get city planners (disclaimer: I&#x27;m trained as one) out of the way. Affordable housing cannot be built new, but is usually created as a side effect when replacement units come on line and push down prices in existing units. SF will never be able to accommodate all incomes as long as there is no open-source planning guidelines that are geared to meeting this demand and give developers that &quot; by right&quot; to build. On Oakland, I lived there and it is awesome except for crime and politics and shifty characters. Especially the Quantics [sic]. Oakland can be THAT place, if the above happens here as well. It could, conceivably be better (yeah, I said it) than SF.
sAuronas超过 11 年前
I used to build mixed-income housing (one third subsidizes public housing units, one third 80% of area median and one third market rate) for a private partnership to redevelop Chicago&#x27;s public housing. I can tell you this...fail. Does not compute. Does not work, socially or financially. The best thing to do is to give mayors the ability to buget city planners
bovermyer超过 11 年前
This is why I prefer Minneapolis to SF. All the character, none of the problems.<p>Though we do only have two seasons - winter and construction.
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legohead超过 11 年前
Doesn&#x27;t NYC have a rent problem as well?<p>I have lived in Russia, and visited San Francisco once. I have to say, I was more uncomfortable in SF than I ever was in Russia. Personally, I don&#x27;t see the appeal. Reading this article, it makes me feel the author has on rose colored glasses when it comes to this city.
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thehme超过 11 年前
I always thought that public transit in the tri-state area was something you could not get anywhere else in the country and this article helps enforce that thought. However, it does bother me that gentrification moves people out of areas they once called home, and I wish this was not the collateral damage of what otherwise seems to be a positive trend. I certainly would not like to have to move because people who can pay more than me move in and force me out of my town. Then again, if moving to the town next door forces schools and services to become better, than maybe it&#x27;s not so bad. It looks to me like no matter how positive the intentions, supply and demand will always rule along with their friend $$.
jff超过 11 年前
I&#x27;ve often thought that while everyone complains about how hard transit is in the bay area, we&#x27;re kind of screwed by geography.<p>The Bay is this big asshole sitting right in the middle of everyone. All of our development is spread out in a ring around the bay, which inflates the distance from one place to another. If you took a map and cut out the bay, then pulled all the shorelines together, it would only be 15 minutes to get from San Jose to Oakland or San Francisco. But nope, we have to go in a big damn ring.
tomkarlo超过 11 年前
An agenda-driven article based on an unsupported anecdote (that lots of his friends are moving to Oakland) and topped with a click-bait headline.<p>If there was really any net &quot;exodus&quot; going on, landlords wouldn&#x27;t be raising rents 25-30% each year.
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n0rb3rt超过 11 年前
I just turned down an offer at Apple because, even with the (by any other standards) generous salary and options, the cost of housing just doesn&#x27;t leave any room for saving for college, retirement, no less owning a home.
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fogonthedowns超过 11 年前
This title is false. San Francisco&#x27;s population is increasing and Oakland&#x27;s is decreasing. It should be called the San Francisco influx.
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tsotha超过 11 年前
Did I just miss it, or did he really lament the lack of new housing in SF without even mentioning rent control?
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ffrryuu超过 11 年前
I&#x27;m looking to move to Texas here.