Ask HN: Should I go to Sweden for work?

48 点作者 cosmorocket超过 11 年前

I have been freelancing from home in Moscow, Russia for 4 years now as a frontend developer and as a self-taught UI/UX specialist. There were good and bad times in regard to work/life balance, money, clients and myself. I am not a famous rockstar freelancer, but during recent 2 years I have been earning $7-$10k per month average, making my clients quite happy and being able to support my wife and our two children. Before starting freelancing I had been working for 8 years at a local publishing house where I got from an ordinary designer to a head of IT dept serving 20+ daily/monthly editions.Now I feel like I am ready to perform a next step in my life, in regard to my career. Recently I have received a job offer from a company in Stockholm doing a software as a service, for a position of a frontend developer. I had a talk via Skype with a couple of representatives of the company and in the end they offered me to visit their office to have a detailed talk as they seem to be quite content with skill I have shown so far. Surely they offer benefits, work permit visa and other things like a vacation, insurance.I googled for average salaries for a position like mine there in Stockholm as well as in other Sweden cities. I have also found some more info about life there, costs, conditions, climate and so on. I know 'average salary' doesn't give much info about my specific potential salary I can get there. But at least I see the range and it's quite different from my current income knowing that I will have to pay for an apartment, likely pay more for food and other things I don't yet know about. On the other hand, may be it will be a good start for me to go networking, finding new opportunities, improving my skills.So, please advise, what things I should consider while deciding? Did you face similar choice when you were offered with a job while you were freelancing? How did you choose to accept or to reject a full time job? What are important factors for you? Can it be a real move forward or more like a deadlock turning me into a small gear in a big mechanism? How can I setup my priorities properly not to say in a year or two I have had lost them?I know many of the questions are subjective but I would like to hear from people who were in the same situation like mine.Thanks!

20 条评论

mrmekon超过 11 年前

I moved to Stockholm from the US earlier this year. The salary is supposedly good for Stockholm, but about 20-30% lower than offers I had in the US. I took it because I particularly loved the idea of living in Sweden, and I was not disappointed.Comparing the cost of living is difficult. I don't know anything about the lifestyle in Moscow, but the US is so extremely different from Sweden that it turns out I did all of my comparisons wrong... I thought my expendable income would go down by moving here, but it actually went up. This is not because Stockholm is cheaper (it's much, much more expensive), but because I imitate the Swedish lifestyle, and the Swedish lifestyle is much cheaper than the American lifestyle :)Swedish salaries aren't going to make you wealthy, they are just going to make you comfortable. And if you live your whole life here and retire here, the government programs will keep you comfortable through your retirement. It's a good system to live in long-term, but it's not the most competitive for short-term positions.Most of my friends here are non-Swedish europeans, and I really only see two stances: either they moved here because they needed a job and they can't wait to move home, or they moved here because they wanted to live in Sweden and they love it. Marriage complicates it even more... some love it, but their spouses desperately want to move home. (good news: young children seem to transition very well)If you or your wife is particularly against moving to Sweden, drop it immediately. You'll probably never get over that. But if it sounds like a fun adventure, then it probably is! If the first thing you want to do here is find some surströmming and köttbullar, you'll have a good time... if the first thing you want to do is find other Russian expats and a Russian food market, it's going to be a long winter.

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fvrghl超过 11 年前

I can tell you a little about Sweden's culture, as I've just moved to Sweden as part of a study abroad program at my university in the USA. Sweden is amazing; it's very clean, and there is very little crime here. The average standard of living here is very high, and as a result, Sweden is crazy expensive. Also, Swedes can be kind of cold. Someone in one of my classes told me that it is uncommon for Swedes to make new friends after 21. Maybe that person was exaggerating, but I have noticed that people here are less open. The tech scene is very welcoming though. I've been to a few tech events around the city, and the people there have been very helpful and nice. I think Stockholm is a great place to live, and if you have a salary that matches the standard of living here (unlike my student budget), I think you will enjoy it.

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sandstrom超过 11 年前

I'm sure there are lots of questions and it's hard to address all of them. Some spontaneous thoughts:- Stockholm is really expensive, housing as well as other living expenses[1]- Salaries are okay, but probably not as high as in some other places- Climate is awesome in the summer, and much less so during the winter.There are some upsides too:- Lots of tech companies, so switching jobs shouldn't be too difficult should you want to.- Some would say it's one of the better cities in the world to live in and grow up. As The Economist puts it "If you had to be reborn anywhere in the world as a person with average talents and income, you would want to be a Viking." This is great for your children.[2]- People are good at english, so getting setup should be easy. Low level of bureaucracy as well. I'd still advice that you learn Swedish though.Many other aspects of course, the actual company you are considering is probably the most important. However, that's hard to speak to in general terms.(I'm not really neutral, since I'm Swedish)[1] <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/picturegalleries/9554951/The-worlds-most-expensive-cities.html?frame=2345267" rel="nofollow">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/picturegalleries/9554951/T...</a>[2] <a href="http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571136-politicians-both-right-and-left-could-learn-nordic-countries-next-supermodel" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571136-politicians-b...</a>

jzet超过 11 年前

I did my masters degree in Stockholm and one thing I think is very important to know is that it is very difficult to find a job without speaking proper Swedish, so if you go to Sweden and at some point decide to change jobs, it might be difficult if you didn't learn Swedish yet. I was in a CS masters program with about 30 other international students and none of us even got a IT related side job (not even at the international companies like IBM, ...) although Kista as part of Stockholm likes to be called "the IT capital of europe ...".Besides that, I really wouldn't worry about crime etc. Swedes definitely have a different perception to crime and danger in general compared to the rest of the world I'd say, simply because Sweden is so peaceful.I lived in Husby, which is considered "ghetto" by Swedes and the riots this year happened pretty much in front of my door. I didn't even notice anything and was never scared to walk home at night, but every Swede I talked to reacted pretty shocked when I told them where I lived. So I really wouldn't worry about that, especially if you got along in Moscow.

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MortenK超过 11 年前

A couple of things:You have to be absolutely certain that they will supply living and work permit for both you and your family. Immigration laws are very strict in Scandinavia, so you'd obviously want to be certain there won't be any nasty surprises with getting your wife and children here.Living costs in Moscow and Stockholm is not that far from each other.A full-time position as a front-end developer usually won't pay through the roof. However a good front-ender never needs to look far for a new job.Career-wise where you'd really be able to take a leap is after a year or two as a frontend dev at this Stockholm company. By then you have working permit sorted out, a Swedish referral and maybe a little knowledge of the language.When you have these things you can break into front-end contracting for customers in Sweden or other countries in Scandinavia (Oslo, Norway is particularly booming at the moment).Front-end contracting is typically full-time contracts on-location for between 6 and 12 months. It typically pays 100+ USD an hour, meaning a monthly income of 16K USD or so given a standard 40 hour workweek. If you have the skills (and it sounds like you do), the contracts are pretty easy to get by using agencies who are always looking for new development talent.It's very hard to jump directly into contracting in Sweden from Russia, particularly due to the whole work-visa problem. But once you are inside, it's a very viable opportunity.If your wife enjoys learning languages, there is free Swedish language education (she can even apply for a "learning bonus" of around 1000 USD pr 6 weeks or so). Once you are in, there's also (almost) free health care and such.Stockholm is a lovely city, and it's only a 2,5 hour flight from Moscow, priced typically at around 400-500 USD round-trip.

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borisquiroz超过 11 年前

I moved from Santiago, Chile to Göteborg on December last year, it wasn't so good to me but my advice is "go ahead".Some thoughts I'd like to share:1. Ask people on your new job for help to find a good place to live. Rent market in Sweden is very complicated, and you'll find yourself in a queue for at least 6 months. Don't try <a href="http://www.blocket.se/" rel="nofollow">http://www.blocket.se/</a> as there's a lot of scam there.2. You'll love public transportation and internet connectivity, they really rocks!3. Taxes are not as expensive as people used to say. Same thing with food and some other stuffs.4. It's a great opportunity to grow up as a professional5. I hate the weather in Sweden, too cold to me :)6. Don't worry about the language, everybody in Sweden speak English.7. Göteborg is a small city, so it's not dangerous at all. Different story in Stockholm, you have to be careful with that.

nisse72超过 11 年前

Finding a rental apartment in Stockholm can be a nightmare unless you're happy commuting from the distant suburbs. It can take many years (even decades) of queuing to get something within the central city ("inom tullarna"), and there is a large black market where rental contracts are sold. You might be able to find sublets, which tend to be for short times only (typically less than 2 years) and even then, competition can be tough unless you know someone looking for a tenant. If you're not in a position to buy, I'd strongly suggest you get your employer to help you find a place to live, or perhaps even rent it for you.That said, Stockholm is a great city and I'd jump at the opportunity.

abcd_f超过 11 年前

FWIW, Stockholm is a very pleasant place to live. I had a chance to live in many countries and Sweden has this very unique calm, balanced and relaxed vibe to it. It is bloody obvious compared to Moscow, but it is also evident compared to Finland for example.Also, I know a couple of Russians who went from no Swedish to conversational level in just 3 months. It's a simple language to pick up.All in all, just go, talk to them and have a look around. Even if you accept and end up regretting it, you still will end up with a bit of immersion living in another (comfortable and interesting) country and that never hurts ;)

alexmic超过 11 年前

Hey!I recently moved to Stockholm from London to join a startup as a software engineer. Here's my experience so far:Stockholm is a lovely city. Small enough to not be too hectic, but big enough to offer a broad variety of things to do. On average, I would say it's expensive – more than London at least – but I think I'm still living like a tourist instead of a local. You're going to have to hunt for the good and cheap places. On the other hand, rent is cheaper. The salaries are lower compared to London and what you've been earning as a freelancer in Moscow but I believe 1000EUR/month spending money for a single person should be enough for a good standard of living.The startup scene is really picking up. There's a number of excellent startups and an attitude towards substance over hype. There are also quite a lot of events happening in the tech and startup scene and most of them are on meetup.com.I'm 26, single, no kids, so my situation is different than yours. When it came to make a decision, salary was not my top priority. The company and people were pretty cool so I just went with it. I was getting a bit bored in London anyway, so I wanted a new experience.Whether it will be a move forward or not it's completely up to you, but I think Stockholm has the potential and infrastructure to help you progress individually and career-wise.

msvan超过 11 年前

Stockholm is lovely but the housing market is a mess. Decades of idiotic policies have halted the construction of new apartments shot the prices through the roof. Just this week I was talking to someone who was renting out his one-room apartment for more than USD 1800/month. If you want to live centrally, prepare to pay for it.

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nodesocket超过 11 年前

I consulted with a startup in Stockholm Sweden for 2.5 months at the start of the year. It was an amazing experience, and needless to say I had an absolute blast. Made many great friends, a few of which have come to SF to visit me since. It is cold Dec-Feb, but around March starts getting nice, and Swedes come out and play.General Rules:- Don't talk to people on the subway. Swedes like their public transportation silent. :)- Swedes like coffee.- It is expensive as hell to eat out (daily), and go to bars often. I did it anyway.- Swedes are very punctual and schedule oriented. They generally work 9-5pm, even in startups.- Don't wait until Saturday to stock up on adult beverages, the lines at the Systembolaget can get insane.- Learn to ice skate (or play Hockey), fun activity during the winter.- Swedish pizza is amazing. Great thin crust.

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jp1989超过 11 年前

Self promotional, but anyone looking for Swedish Startup Jobs can check out our job board. Mostly dev positions <a href="http://swedishstartupspace.com/jobs/" rel="nofollow">http://swedishstartupspace.com/jobs/</a>

TiduZ超过 11 年前

I live in Norway, right over the border of sweden. What we experience is that people for sweden move over here, becouse the pay is better. As a software - engineer, pay is much higher in Norway.

Wobblebobble超过 11 年前

Is $10k per month considered a normal salary for a developer in Russia? Where I live (not Sweden but close, also a far higher GDP per capita than Russia) you'd have to be among the best in your field to expect to be paid even half that much.

angularly超过 11 年前

Taxes are alot higher than in Russia. You'll probably end up paying 50-60% in total taxes (income + sales + various other hidden taxes on consumer goods etc.). So thats something to consider.

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tlarkworthy超过 11 年前

If you have never lived outside your native culture before, then moving and immersing yourself in a different culture will be mind expanding. Even if you don't like the experience, you will learn who you are better. That knowledge will strengthen you for the rest of your life.

subsystem超过 11 年前

If you can find a rent controlled (or otherwise modestly priced) apartment in the city, otherwise I wouldn't bother. It's also not something you can easily offset by a higher salary.

frigg超过 11 年前

Hello,I'm not from Sweden but if you could post an approximation of the salary they offered maybe someone who lives there might better answer how you will manage. Good luck!

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Tichy超过 11 年前

Can you ask them to pay you sufficiently?

seivan超过 11 年前

Be ready to pay up for a place to stay in Stockholm, I'm native and I gotta stay in queue in order to get to rent. There is no free market for apartments - at least not for rentals. You can take your chance at the Swedish equivalent of Craigs List or get to know someone. I've given up and decided to buy.Taxes aren't as high as people complain about, unless you're a freelancer. Small businesses get screwed royally and don't get much support compared to larger ones, but as an employee you will have it decent. You get what you pay for. Compared to say in Singapore, where you pay nada, and get nada. Some people like it.Crime and religious extremism is in all time high. They do correlate to some degree. I lived in SG for two years, and I felt incredibly safe there (not even locking our door) coming back to Sweden, I feel a but more paranoid about having my laptop in my outside compartment of my bag.I'm too scared to pickup my iPhone from my pocket when walking home late.Public Transport is amazing. Trains across Sweden, is less so. I got stuck or eleven hours one winter. They seem incredibly amazed that it snows in Winter... each year.Dining out is also pretty cool. Not as much variety as I'd like, but the level between fine dining and regular dining on the food quality is pretty similar. So if you're ok not having a waiter, you can pay less and still have decent food.Language skills... nothing to say here. Every Swede can speak and write English. You won't have problems here.

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