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Having a Servant Is Not a Right

156 点作者 GabrielF00超过 11 年前

26 条评论

bane超过 11 年前
&gt; Last week, I watched with bewilderment as India’s most vociferous talk show host, Arnab Goswami, repeatedly asked his guests if they expected an Indian diplomat who is paid $4,180 a month to pay her domestic servant $4,500 a month. Meanwhile an American guest, Lisa Curtis, a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, tried to make a point: “If somebody cannot afford to have domestic help, then they don’t have domestic help.”<p>I had a few Indian friends in college who all lamented the lack of servants in their American day-to-day. One woman I knew recalled having 6 or 7 servants, but described herself as coming from just a normal, slightly-upper-middle class family.<p>It really stuck with me over the years. Growing up in the U.S., servants have a kind of old-world upper-class, if not crusty and exploitive, vibe.<p>Yet I&#x27;ve found myself over the years, as free-time disappeared into work and salaries increased, hiring a maid to come in once a month to clean house and a gardener to mow my lawn and tidy my plants once every couple of weeks. I&#x27;ve hired tutors and other private instructors, a fixit guy who comes and does other maintenance on my home every once in a while and so on. My wife and I have toyed with having a cook come in once a week and prepare a bunch of meals.<p>I&#x27;m sure if pressed I could come up with a half dozen other people I&#x27;ve hired on for their physical labor at one time or another. If needed, I&#x27;m sure most of them would become &quot;live in servants&quot; for the right price and accommodations.<p>It&#x27;s also not uncommon in my area for families to hire Au Pairs which is really just a fancy way of saying live-in Nanny&#x2F;house maid, which is a servant&#x27;s title. They&#x27;re given fairly little pay, maybe $1200&#x2F;mo and room and board in exchange for child care and some house chores&#x2F;personal assistant work. In other areas dedicated personal assistants are quite common. And I&#x27;ve seen people setup &quot;internships&quot; for their personal businesses which are so tied to their personal lives that the work is usually just personal assisting for intern pay.<p>Yet in the U.S. we&#x27;ve allergic to calling these people &quot;servants&quot; because it seems menial and disparaging I guess.<p>I&#x27;m curious though, where does the concept of &quot;servant&quot; actually end? Is my mechanic a servant? Or is he not because I go to his place for him to do the work instead of having him come to mine?
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credo超过 11 年前
I think it was wrong to strip-search and do cavity searches on the consular officer (in this case, a woman) &quot;accused&quot; of underpaying a maid. However,I&#x27;m not going to focus on that and I&#x27;m not going to quibble with some of the exaggerations in this column. Overall, I agree that Ms Khobragade must be prosecuted and the evidence clearly suggests that she is guilty.<p>However, I find it astonishing that so many people (most of them sharing my citizenship) can be so oblivious to some of the <i>mind-boggling arrogant hypocrisy</i> going around.<p>Recently, there was a news report on &quot;diplomatic immunity&quot; for an &quot;information management officer&quot; in the US embassy in Kenya. This American man was speeding in his SUV. He crossed the middle-line and crashed into another vehicle <i>killing</i> one man and injuring many more.<p>This wasn&#x27;t just the garden-variety &quot;hit and run&quot; accident we see in America. This man didn&#x27;t just flee the scene, he fled Kenya (with US government help) and the US government is asserting &quot;diplomatic immunity&quot;.<p>Can any critic of India seriously argue that it is OK for the US to assert diplomatic immunity and spirit this &quot;information management officer&quot; out of the country - even though he killed one innocent man (in this case, a father of three) with his reckless driving.
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jordanb超过 11 年前
An important thing to clear up here is that Khobragade was not a full &quot;diplomat&quot; at the time of her arrest but rather a &quot;consular official&quot; who receives a limited type of immunity that only applies to laws broken while carrying out official duties.<p>Also the most serious charge against her isn&#x27;t the wage dispute but perjury resulting from incorrect data she put on the visa forms.<p>India has subsequently promoted her from the NY consulate to the Indian diplomatic mission to the UN and has claimed retroactive diplomatic immunity for her, but there are procedural questions about this move.
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chasing超过 11 年前
&gt; &quot;If somebody cannot afford to have [X], then they don’t have [X].&quot;<p>To be fair, many Americans could take the same lesson.<p>(And thanks for making me have to agree with the Heritage Foundation. Now I need to go take a shower and read some Paul Krugman columns...)
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al2o3cr超过 11 年前
&quot;India is furious that the diplomat, Devyani Khobragade, was strip-searched and kept in a cell in New York with criminals.&quot;<p>Because wage theft isn&#x27;t at all like those nasty crimes everybody <i>else</i> does, amirite?<p>Well, it is slightly different - it&#x27;s only committable by people who have enough cash to pay wages. So in short: &quot;waddya mean I&#x27;m a criminal? I&#x27;M RICH!&quot;
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moocowduckquack超过 11 年前
Arresting a diplomat will always cause problems but it was absolutely inexcusable for this diplomat to expect to get away with underpaying their housekeeper.<p>That said, strip-searching someone over a wage dispute is far beyond the pale as well.<p>And strip-searching an Indian diplomat for no particularly good reason during an arrest, is not just wrong, but also really fucking stupid, as it could have actual security implications for the US in India as we have already seen with some of the embassy&#x27;s protection being withdrawn.
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yummyfajitas超过 11 年前
The numbers in this article don&#x27;t make sense. The article complains that servants in India receive earn $64-161&#x2F;month (4-10,000 rs&#x2F;month). India&#x27;s median income is only 53,000rs&#x2F;year. So according to the article, the average servant in India is earning between 1x and 2.5x the median income.<p>(These numbers are skewed a bit due to the rural&#x2F;urban divide.)<p>I have no idea what is &quot;exploitative&quot; about this. The article talks about paying Indian servants low wages by &quot;any objective standard&quot;, which I assume means US standards. This is true but silly - it&#x27;s not just the servants with low income, even the masters are dirt poor by US standards.<p><a href="http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/IW3P/IB/2012/11/06/000158349_20121106085546/Rendered/PDF/wps6259.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www-wds.worldbank.org&#x2F;external&#x2F;default&#x2F;WDSContentServ...</a><p><a href="http://dipeco.uniroma3.it/public/WP%20163%20Liberati%202012.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;dipeco.uniroma3.it&#x2F;public&#x2F;WP%20163%20Liberati%202012....</a>
petilon超过 11 年前
According to the story, servants only earn about $64 to $161 per month, which is too little. Author also opines that if someone cannot afford to pay more for domestic help then they shouldn&#x27;t have domestic help.<p>That&#x27;s easy to say. That&#x27;s like saying it is better to starve than work for $64 to $161 per month. If that&#x27;s the most the employer can afford to pay you, why wouldn&#x27;t you take it, as opposed to starving?<p>Indian salaries are low across the board. A school teacher may get paid around $320 per month. If that school teacher wants to hire domestic help for $160 per month, and the alternative for the would-be servant is starvation, what&#x27;s wrong with taking that job? What&#x27;s wrong with the school teacher hiring that help?
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suprgeek超过 11 年前
While this diplomat person as an individual is none too commendable (back home in India she is involved in some questionable property dealings [1]) - there is much more to the story than this shallow but seemingly introspective &quot;article&quot;.<p>The lady (servant - according to the article) was brought in on an authorized &quot;Au pair&quot; visa. Indian Diplomats in the US are paid little in-terms of monetary benefits. Most compensation is in the form of &quot;perks&quot; that help in their day-to-day lives - this &quot;au pair&quot; benefit is one such perk.<p>While in the US this &quot;au pair&quot; ran away despite being (apparently [2]) treated well. Then there are serious allegations that she contacted a lawyer thru whom she tried to extort the diplomat [3].<p>No one is implying that having a &quot;servant&quot; is a right. Having an &quot;au pair&quot; was an accepted &amp; Authorized perk. The article starts off with a wrong-headed premise and does some hand-waving from there.<p>Also see <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6947473" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=6947473</a> for the real motivation behind this incident.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.firstpost.com/india/adarsh-scam-devyani-khobragade-ineligible-for-flat-says-panel-1299599.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.firstpost.com&#x2F;india&#x2F;adarsh-scam-devyani-khobragad...</a><p>[2] <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2526719/Pictured-The-housekeeper-center-international-furor-arrest-Indian-diplomat-boss-kept-virtual-slave-leaked-letter-home-reveals-claimed-not-feel-like-servant-all.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dailymail.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;article-2526719&#x2F;Pictured-The...</a><p>[3] <a href="http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2013/12/18/richards-demanded-10000-khobragade-change-visa-status-termination-contract/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.americanbazaaronline.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;12&#x2F;18&#x2F;richards-dema...</a>
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FrankenPC超过 11 年前
Yeah. OK. I think any rational human would agree that the treatment of the servant was wrong. OTOH: NEVER violate diplomatic immunity rules! They are there to protect US...not THEM. You know, sort of like how it would be incredibly hypocritical to agree to international war crime laws then commit acts of torture and overthrow the sovereign ruler of a country. You can&#x27;t do that! You...oops.
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Havoc超过 11 年前
Having a maid&#x2F;gardener etc is fairly common in most 3rd world countries. Often the wage is a bit on the dubious side, but I think most of our 1st world country hn people are misinterpreting this as intentionally malicious. The process usually involves asking some close friends&#x2F;relatives what they pay &amp; then paying similar amounts. The end result is that its market forces driven.<p>As for minimum wage - certainly. However it must be set according to the country. e.g. If you set the minimum wage in my country at what an American might think appropriate then you&#x27;d double unemployment overnight. &quot;Living wage&quot;...sure but one has to be realistic too - at some point you push people out of the formal economy &amp; that point is very very low for 3rd world countries.
akshtest超过 11 年前
Typical idiotic argument by NYTimes, As someone who had multiple servants working at my home (a cook and cleaner), so that my mother could work at her job. I find the argument &quot;If you can&#x27;t pay a decent wage, don&#x27;t hire one&quot; idiotic. Wages are determined by market, and in case of our house, we routinely had to give a raise as well as bonus near holidays. Simply because reliable servants are hard to find. Who determines the &quot;Decent&quot; wage, idiots at NYTimes?<p>This is the same misguided argument against garment factory workers from Bangladesh and FOXCONN workers in China. Rest of the world does not have the luxury of Social Security, Food Stamps, Medicaid and a ridiculous minimum wage.
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dalit超过 11 年前
The real curse of India is the hindu caste system. Here in India it&#x27;s something like &quot;you shall not name it, or say it&quot;. Everyone knows it&#x27;s the real cause, but no one says it or worse tries to generalise and hide it in other words. For every single Devayani, or K.R.Narayanan (who was made the president of India), there are lakhs and lakhs of untold unspeakable cruelty and suffering and that is the true ratio.<p>International readers would get the real picture of India if they skim through local hindi newspapers (especially states of Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar) using Google translator everyday to know about the real India and the real hindu caste system, instead of relying on sugar-coated and watered-down reality and wonderland being churned by cunning authors or Bollywood.<p>Here the issue is simple. It&#x27;s a matter of protocols and rights. It was about nations. But even the cunning author (like the other snakes in India) brought in the hindu caste factor, perhaps for a good reason. You know the kind of sly hint to the upper caste NRIs that she&#x27;s not one of us, so lie low for now and pretend to be good in the eyes of the US.<p>The low castes (untouchables) are making headway in India not due to any empathy of the hindu caste system and hinduism but due to their becoming aware of the sheer strength of their numbers and the power of organisation. So much so that even karma and dharma have been flushed down the latrines, and people have begun to realise and make their own destiny and bright future. And the best part is that, hinduism no more has the balls to assert or speak about its true philosophy and values but is forced to hide itself in the &quot;progressive&quot; sheep cloth.
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asimov42超过 11 年前
Isn&#x27;t it obvious this is the result of a country of extremely low average income and extremely high population?<p>Of course it would be great to have even a semblance of equality, but I dont see a solution given the current economic model.
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seivan超过 11 年前
I&#x27;ve noticed this tendency to abuse the crap out of the Air Stewards on-board Singapore Airlines from indians. Not a single occurrence, but several times on several flights.
winstonx超过 11 年前
The moral of the article is &quot;it&#x27;s wrong to exploit the impoverished.&quot; It&#x27;s easy to apply that moral to other cultures and societies, but difficult to apply to one&#x27;s own.<p>Indians deny injustice when it gives them servants just like Westerners deny injustice when it gives them iPhones.
toufka超过 11 年前
The talk show mentioned in the last paragraph is here [1]. The quote comes at the end, ~45:30. Pretty terrible moderation - it&#x27;s hard to watch, though it might at least bring out some of the points from another perspective. The focus seems to be entirely on the diplomatic insult of a pretty woman put in handcuffs over a &#x27;trivial&#x27; matter. But combined with the US&#x27;s (genuine) hypocrisy as noted by their handling of the Raymond Davis issue in Pakistan, there seem to be ulterior tensions leaking into this particular incident.<p>Diplomatic relations are hard - there is such difficulty knowing how actions will be perceived by another nation&#x2F;culture.<p>[1]<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbHYiOAtFS4" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=qbHYiOAtFS4</a>
kamakazizuru超过 11 年前
The author shows a complete lack of understanding of India - and brings up completely unrelated topics (casteism?!) to support her already weak point. In fact - bringing up the Diplomats caste is her being racist (casteist? - dunno the right word but you know what I mean) herself. It&#x27;s as if an American author were to say &quot;well a few hundred years ago these black people were slaves - and now they dare to treat someone badly&quot; - how is that a reasonable argument by any means?<p>Coming to the crux of the matter. Having lived in Bombay - and having had servants I can say that its in no means as &quot;exploitative&quot; as the author claims. Sure - an indian house helper earns less than an american does. So what? The median income in India is nowhere close to comparable to that in the US. An uneducated village boy - who would either earn a few hundred rupees (10-20 USD) a month working on someone elses farm in his village - is much better off coming to the city and earning more than five or six thousand rupees (100 - 120 $) a month in the city - with which he can also support his family back in the village who get by on subsistence farming. Many servants take on multiple jobs - earning almost double or triple of that. Which is NOT bad by any means considering he will often be provided meals and accomodation in addition to his salary. Its a simple calculation - the average IT worker earns approximately 40-5000 rupees after tax per month - assume if a couple - both employed in IT - earning around 100000 rupees per month - keep a maid to cook and clean - and pay her 10000 a month. Thats 10% of their salary - why is that exploitative? The maid is free to go take 2-3 others such jobs to fill her day and is easily making close to what the IT guys make. Until we reach a standard of literacy and education where everyone can make tonnes of money - this will continue - and its NOT a bad thing. A lot of families try to break the cycle by paying the school fees for their servants children or buying them the yearly textbooks etc - we did that growing up. At the end of the day - its a free market and these are not indentured slaves - if they find better paying work elsewhere (and often they do - cleaning malls and the like) - they go do that - and no one can stop them.<p>As for why people &quot;need&quot; servants - well - its a part of the culture and has a lot to do with economics as well. Right now - in a city like Bombay -its cheaper to have a servant who washes your clothes and cleans your house - than it is to have a washing machine (if you&#x27;re lucky enough to have the space to fit one in) &amp; a vaccuum cleaner. Its a dusty country - and you do need to clean more often than you do in the temperate regions. In families where all adults are working - it just makes sense to have a servant. Its economics and logic - not exploitation.
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Houshalter超过 11 年前
A minimum wage would definitely help the wages of a lot of servants. But it would (probably) mean some percent of them becoming unemployed because they can&#x27;t be afforded&#x2F;aren&#x27;t worth the cost anymore. It might also decrease working conditions, because those unemployed people are now competing for your job. You can&#x27;t compete on the basis of wages anymore so now it on the basis of how much you can do&#x2F;put up with. Also because it then becomes harder to leave your job and find another.<p>That doesn&#x27;t mean there isn&#x27;t a net benefit to doing it. An ideal solution would be a basic income. Tax everyone equally, not just those that hire lots of servants, and benefit everyone equally, not just employed servants. But I don&#x27;t see that happening anytime soon.
puppetmaster3超过 11 年前
Yes, I see it so clear, USA culture is superior &#x2F;s.
jacob2271超过 11 年前
First things first, as an Indian,<p>Ms. Khobragade if she exploited the maid is in the wrong. The rich and the powerful do get away with a lot in India, which to the chagrin of Ms. Khobragade, she found out was not the case elsewhere.<p>Most of the criticism we see in India about US actions and support for Ms. Khobragade isn&#x27;t necessarily that. There are a couple of concerns which largely underlie the anger<p>(a) US diplomats (and diplomats of other nations) enjoy many privileges in India. These privileges are reciprocal and India feels that this reciprocity was not available when dealing with Ms. Khobragade. Older folks like my father who was a government officer for his entire working life understand that she should be prosecuted, they only expect an apology for the treatment meted out to Ms. Khobragade during and after the arrest, which is not forthcoming.<p>This reciprocity extends to looking the other way when granting permits and licenses such as those for importing liquor, visa for same sex couples, which is a grey area in Indian penal code and many other benefits which are not all clearly legal.<p>(b) US actions to grant visa and arrange for Ms. Sangeeta Richards and family be flown out of India despite requests by Indian government, which provided US with details of a missing persons&#x2F;absconding report having been filed in India, undermine Indian Judiciary. The undercurrent claim, Ms. Richards would not be served justice in India.<p>It is debatable whether Ms. Richards would have justice served in India, what is not debatable is the wrong doing of the US to publicly undermine the Indian judiciary. Ms. Richards is an Indian citizen and needs to pursue cases under the Indian law.<p>(c) There has been for a time now, a proposal to contract and place positions like those of Ms. Richards directly under the preview of the Indian government. This proposal had not been approved by the parliament yet, however the US department of state was aware of this. It is expected to be approved and when it does pass the parliament, Ms. Richards would be paid wages in India and would be free to accept or decline the offered pay. Ms. Richards was in a similar situation and was free to return to India if she considered herself exploited.<p>This is the gray area reciprocity that India extends to US diplomats and expects the same in return.<p>Ms. Khobragade is a smoke screen for why India feels wrong.
sjtgraham超过 11 年前
Did anyone else read the title as &quot;Having a Servant is Not Right&quot;?
aagha超过 11 年前
What a piece of crap link-bait. The actual title of the article should have been the last sentence of her piece: &quot;Having a servant you cannot pay a decent wage cannot be a birthright&quot;.
charlieflowers超过 11 年前
When we choose a diplomat for a country that makes homosexuality illegal, shouldn&#x27;t we avoid selecting a homosexual diplomat? That seems like fairly basic diplomacy.
afterburner超过 11 年前
India has a class problem.
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yetanotherphd超过 11 年前
I wonder if the same people who say &quot;If you can&#x27;t afford to pay a servant a living wage, you shouldn&#x27;t have one&quot; also like to claim the raising the minimum wage doesn&#x27;t increase unemployment?
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