TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

72 点作者 MonicaSelby超过 11 年前

21 条评论

spodek超过 11 年前
When Nixon went to China people said it took Nixon to go to China, implying only someone obviously anti-communist could go there without being labeled a communist.<p>Likewise, no man could say &quot;<i>Women in 21st century American cities are the privileged of the privileged</i>,&quot; as the woman who wrote that article wrote, without being lambasted.<p>I don&#x27;t know if I would say it so strongly, but the once-standard view that men succeed at women&#x27;s expense seems to be crumbling as people recognize the glass cellar as powerful as the glass ceiling; that as much as men occupy the top echelons of business and politics, so do they occupy the bottom of homelessness; that as they dominate lucrative fields like engineering, so do they dominate fields that dominate workplace deaths like mining, construction, trash disposal, long-haul trucking, soldiers, etc; that as much as women have trouble entering STEM fields, so do men have trouble entering teaching, nursing, etc. Women are successful in the West -- more of them get college degrees, they live longer, no law forces them to register for the military (in the U.S. at least), the law doesn&#x27;t imprison them nearly as much, the government has many programs to help them, and so on.<p>It seems that decades ago both men and women had to follow gender roles. Women&#x27;s roles have since opened up, giving them more options. Men&#x27;s roles have opened somewhat, but less so. I know a lot of fathers and I&#x27;ve never met one who didn&#x27;t want to spend more time with his children, but they tend to have fewer options to.<p>Many of the initiatives the author of the article questioned could probably help more if they defined need around issues other than sex.<p>(EDIT: I hope people posting realize that HN weighting sinks stories with more posts than upvotes. If you want a discussion with many people participating, keep the number of posts below the number of upvotes the story gets. Otherwise it drops off the front page.)
评论 #7011840 未加载
Scienz超过 11 年前
It seems doubtful that the answer to social inequalities is to make special privileges for each group to match the special privileges already enjoyed by others, as opposed to working more towards an ideal of equal treatment for everyone. I kind of cringe every time I see some study or argument saying something to the effect of, &quot;Women are, in fact, better suited for this type of work than men are.&quot; The healthy thing to do would be to judge each individual on their own merits, regardless of what group they belong to. Women-only type things seem a bit regressive in that respect, in that they fight fire with more fire rather than fixing the underlying issue of automatic special treatment based on which group you belong to. Not that I&#x27;m actively against such programs, anymore than I would be against a bachelor&#x27;s party or a girls-night-out. People have the right to organize and I know such programs were instrumental in helping to decrease the amount of sexism in society. The point is just that the more you isolate people into special groups and make them stand out, the more you encourage inequality in society as a whole. So yes I think this was a good post.
评论 #7011632 未加载
pessimizer超过 11 年前
There&#x27;s no connection between the headline and the article, which not only doesn&#x27;t examine the results of any women-only initiatives, but only mentions a single example (that it seems to approve of.)<p>&gt;But there’s something wrong when we treat half the population like a minority or special interest group.<p>There&#x27;s also something wrong when we treat half the population like baby breeding kitchen help, too. We remediate the damage done by open sexism through targeted help. When it comes to management, ownership, and government, women are not only a minority, they are an extreme minority.<p>&gt;Women don’t need all the help we can get because we’re women.<p>No, that&#x27;s why a sexist would help women. Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don&#x27;t really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack. Women sometimes need help because they are generally smaller and lack upper body strength. If you can get by without it, feel free.<p>There&#x27;s a temptation as a member of a discriminated against group who has found some success amongst the dominant group to use their own success and the success of their friends to argue that merit will always rise to the top. Don&#x27;t do this, because you will be paraded as evidence that discrimination is over, and it&#x27;s alright to withdraw from the ghettos and set them on fire.<p>If a few millionaires are enough to say that discrimination doesn&#x27;t matter anymore, racism against blacks must have ended before slavery.
评论 #7011622 未加载
评论 #7012339 未加载
danso超过 11 年前
&gt; <i>I’m going to go out on a limb and say that’s true for everywhere else now, too. Are there sexist and biased individuals out there? Of course. Are there systems still in place from a sexist past that need to be revamped? Sure, and the flood of educated, successful women will eventually take care of that.</i><p>I can&#x27;t speak for the women groups, but I think the last sentence in the above statement has not, to their opinion, borne itself out. Thus, the need for groups that specifically advocate for them.<p>I&#x27;ll say this as a member of an &quot;empowered&quot; minority group... I&#x27;m Asian, I&#x27;ve grown up in nearly-all-white communities in the Midwest, my family was technically low-income but otherwise, I never <i>felt</i> disenfranchised. And I did follow in the &quot;model minority&quot; path of working hard and doing well for myself, and Asians, overall, perform highly on tests of academic measure and personal wealth in America.<p>But let&#x27;s ignore the thing of not all Asian immigrants being on equal footing (that is Chinese&#x2F;Korean&#x2F;Japanese is not the same as, say, Cambodian)...Asians, despite their empowerment, get roundly screwed in media portrayal and perception. In news coverage and in popular media. The only reason why I watch WAlking Dead from time to time is because it is so utterly astonishing to me to see a popular lead Asian character who is not at all exotic, not valued for his math skills, and doesn&#x27;t appear to know martial arts. (there&#x27;s also BD Wong in Law and Order SVU, but he&#x27;s not as much in the spotlight as Steven Yeun&#x27;s character).<p>A friend of my works in an Asian American advocacy group...we both ponder on how Asians are indeed a privileged group, yet at the same time, because collectively we do so little to be the greasy wheel, there are ways we get stepped on. But because the meritocracy seems to be working for us (as a group), there seems to be little desire to get involved in advocacy.
quinnchr超过 11 年前
The goal of women oriented initiatives isn&#x27;t to tell women they aren&#x27;t as capable. The author may be perfectly capable and she may be treated on her merit alone, but in aggregate women are not treated like that.<p>From <a href="http://www.oecd.org/inclusive-growth/Closing%20the%20Gender%20Gaps.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oecd.org&#x2F;inclusive-growth&#x2F;Closing%20the%20Gender%...</a><p>&quot;They reveal considerable gender differences among the self-employed, particularly those who are also employers. Figure 22.1 shows that across the 27 EU countries only 25% of business owners with employees are women (for definitions, see Annex IV.A1). The low share of women has only marginally grown over the last decade in the EU27, Canada and United States&quot;<p>Let&#x27;s not kid ourselves. Women face serious hurdles in entrepreneurship. They have less access to credit when starting new businesses for one. Women who own businesses are on average higher educated than there male counterparts yet they earn significantly lower salaries.<p>I will end by pointing out that women focused initiatives help everyone, not just women. There is a positive correlation between gender equality and GDP per capita, everyone wins in an equitable society.
评论 #7011773 未加载
评论 #7012009 未加载
undoware超过 11 年前
Another oft-overlooked problem with women-only spaces is that they tend to put enormous pressure on the litmus, namely, &quot;is so-and-so a woman?&quot; This tends to screw over people like me (trans).<p>Now, I know that&#x27;s not front page news -- there are how many of us? -- but if you care about things like wheelchair ramps and braille, you care about how structural decisions affect the ability of minorities to access a space.<p>In this case, the minority is being kept out by a conceptual barrier rather than (say) a pre-war flight of stairs, but it still really really sucks to be that minority.<p>Just another consideration. I&#x27;m actually undecided if inclusive, well-managed women-only (or _-only, where _ is a minority of your choosing) spaces are the best approach to the (serious) problem, but I know that some people benefit greatly from such spaces. So it&#x27;s a question for sociology, really, not hand-waving debate (is there a way of preserving the benefits of these spaces while being more inclusive? what are the supposed benefits? How significant? For whom?)
dmn757超过 11 年前
Great post. I have been trying to make this point here on HN this past week or so, only to be downvoted into oblivion. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.
alan_cx超过 11 年前
Why does no one care how many men are in hairdressing, finger nail painting, child care, teaching and so on?
评论 #7011889 未加载
评论 #7012160 未加载
评论 #7011856 未加载
nraynaud超过 11 年前
On a side note, in traditional designation of gender roles in many cultures the women handle the family money, or do the sales (for example the man does the harvest and the women does the sale at the market). Which I think could be leveraged when it&#x27;s time to break the mold.<p>Traditional gender roles has been exploited in education in some part of the world for example. They decided to focus on little girls going to school, since they will be the ones caring for the family later in life, they will be the one spreading the knowledge to the kids, so if there is a choice is to be made, it&#x27;s more efficient to send a girl than a boy to school.
ps4fanboy超过 11 年前
<i>In 2010-11, there were more female (55%) than male fulltime undergraduates (45%) enrolled at university – a trend which shows no sign of shrinking</i><p><a href="http://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2013/jan/29/how-many-men-and-women-are-studying-at-my-university" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;education&#x2F;datablog&#x2F;2013&#x2F;jan&#x2F;29&#x2F;ho...</a><p>This sort of thing is happening in most western societies, majority of university students are women, but what we are most concerned about is which degrees they are choosing.
评论 #7011766 未加载
sp332超过 11 年前
If this is true, why are only 20% of Computer Science grads women? And the ratio has been falling since 2001.
评论 #7011555 未加载
评论 #7011541 未加载
评论 #7011583 未加载
评论 #7011569 未加载
评论 #7012108 未加载
评论 #7011803 未加载
xdd超过 11 年前
The reason why this became a topic is only because technology, soft&#x2F;hardware developer really make a lot of money right now.<p>I remember reading this in HN:&quot; How to detect female-ism? Don&#x27;t just focus on the fancy job like CEOs, Founders who made million of dollars, you also need to look at mine workers, bus drivers these dangerous jobs.&quot; ask yourself why female-ism not talk about women need to work at those fields too?<p>Then, if you read &quot;revenge of the nerd&quot; by paul graham, you will understand more.
daleharvey超过 11 年前
The main quote that sticks out for me is &#x27;Sure, and the flood of educated, successful women will eventually take care of that.&#x27;<p>The plural of anecdote isnt data, because some people have managed to find success doesnt change the fact that women are leaving this fairly hostile field in droves.
onada超过 11 年前
Feminism is not meant to only help women, at least in the last few renditions of it. It&#x27;s meant to seek justice for all persons. It&#x27;s a rather complicated political-social phenomenon that has seen many renditions, so I wouldn&#x27;t try to simplify it further.<p>Anyways, I doubt women-only-initiatives only help women in the great scheme of things, as that&#x27;s not how things&#x2F;communities&#x2F;humans work. Women-only groups and incubators are wonderful, and of course they would support the world beyond because they exist in the same world.
nicktipp超过 11 年前
I just don&#x27;t understand why this post and discussion is being censored? Any one know why it just went from #3 to off the front page in under 5 minutes?
评论 #7011890 未加载
nicktipp超过 11 年前
And just like that this post went from #3 to off the front page in 5 minutes. Is sexism to controversial of a subject to discuss so it&#x27;s just going to be ignored?
评论 #7011853 未加载
smtddr超过 11 年前
Aaaaaaaaand... GONE![1]. Took about, hmm, 37mins. Perhaps HN&#x27;s and&#x2F;or tech community isn&#x27;t the open-minded, diversity-welcoming group we all think we are...<p>1. <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7006583" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7006583</a>
评论 #7011997 未加载
评论 #7012011 未加载
stefantalpalaru超过 11 年前
Bravo! It takes courage to suggest there&#x27;s something wrong with compensatory sexism.
hbags超过 11 年前
There&#x27;s an over proliferation of all conferences, and this includes niche conferences.<p>The answer to her headline question appears to deviate from Betteridge&#x27;s law, in that she concludes that some of the initiatives help women.
fantnn超过 11 年前
b-but the patriarchy!
ps4fanboy超过 11 年前
No one will be happy until we have full blown socialism where everyone is assigned a career at birth that maintains a neat ratio for every industry by race&#x2F;sex.
评论 #7011780 未加载