MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

[...] <i>They offered to give me a full refund of my purchase. I suppose this would be fine, if I could go to another Apple retail store and purchase a portable machine of this size that had an 8bit screen.</i> [...]<p>Here's where I stopped reading. I, too, would like a pony.

Alternate headline choice: Man with ability to research decides not to and is disappointed in purchase but offered full refund

I am anxious to see a class action lawsuit against hardware manufacturers claiming "millions of colors" on 6-bit panels. One doesn't need to be a designer/photographer to tell two screens apart: a true 8-bit panel with 16.7M output and dithered 6-bit junk. And don't get me started on lack of standardization for contrast ratios and viewing angles.<p>Once consumers will see real "262K colors" stickers on their laptops, who knows maybe we'll get back our FlexView screens on Thinkpads.

He mentions a couple of times about dithering, saying it is "blending nearby colors". I have heard notebook displays also use temporal dithering where they quickly change the color of single pixel and your eye merges it into an intermediate value. (strictly speaking, blending nearby colors could refer to nearby in time, but I think he was refering to spatially nearby)

Surprising hardware spec choice given the the market penetration Apple has in the design profession.

I've noticed a phenomenal variance in LCD quality recently, and 6-bit is the least of the problem.<p>My Asus G1 has an incredibly good screen--very high-contrast, a near-perfect viewing angle: I can read text as far as 80 degrees to the side or top, where 90 means unable to see any of the screen. It's high-DPI (1680x1050 on a 15.4") as well. Odds are it's a 6-bit TN, and all the research I've done suggests that. But it's amazing despite that.<p>My company gave me a Thinkpad for personal use. It has a similar size screen. The contrast is <i>abominable</i>; the screen is bright gray when it's black and no matter how much I adjust contrast/brightness I can't make it usable. The viewing angle is atrocious. And yet from what I can tell... it's also a 6-bit TN.<p>Bits are, IMO, one of the less important problems in LCD panels these days; the overall quality as a whole is suffering greatly in new screens.

Regardless of what you think of the dude writing it, saying "millions of colors" is false advertising if it's done by dithering. Why stop at millions, why not advertise billions or trillions of colors? (Though I guess it's limited by the number of pixels on the screen.)<p>I had no idea about this, and that's the most dishonest piece of marketing from a reputable company I've heard in a long time.

I purchased my first mac last year ( a white macbook, right before the new unibody models came out).<p>The screen on the thing is a piece of dung. Gradients look terrible.<p>My acer travelmate from the days of the dinosaurs even has a better screen.<p>I enjoyed reading about this guys little quest and it's one of the reasons I prefer to keep my distance from Apple.

PITA dealing with Apple on this, and the screens should indeed do what they advertise.<p>Still, since you already knew about 6-bit vs 8-bit issues, why did you not look in the store before buying? The dithering is visible to the careful eye just by looking for it on my 13" Macbook (white, plastic, relatively cheap).

Interesting. The Apple MacBook Pro website makes no distinction between the models as to the color support. They all say "millions of colors", and as someone who doesn't deal with colors for a living I would expect them to have identical support.

This article seems to indicate the exact opposite; that the new Pro displays (including the 13") have markedly improved colour accuracy.<p>"Colour accuracy in the three MacBook Pro displays is as right as we've seen in a laptop display, equal to or better than some midrange desktop displays and not that far off the level of colour correctness found in a premium desktop display."<p><a href="http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10041-10146&#38;sr=hotnews" rel="nofollow">http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10041-...</a>

So how does one tell whether a monitor is 6-bit or 8-bit?

Even his old MacBook Pro 17" has a 6bit display.<p>Moreover, different batches have different monitors.<p>Manufacturers keep lowering prices (remember how much the Powerbooks did cost?) so they must use cheaper technology, and most people are mostly ignorant about specs anyway.<p>Glossy screens are another example (they're cheaper to make and they look better at first sight).

Does anybody know why Apple won't just come out and declare whether the 13" MacBook has 6 Bit or 8 Bit color?<p>As a side note - this is why I love HN - I remember the class action lawsuit over colors and Apple a few years ago (or at least discussion around it) - but I didn't know what it was over. Now I have insight into the differences in LCD color qualities and get the insight that the 13" MacBook pro isn't _really_ totally Pro.<p><a href="http://compreviews.about.com/od/multimedia/a/LCDColor.htm" rel="nofollow">http://compreviews.about.com/od/multimedia/a/LCDColor.htm</a>

I'm not sure what this guy is looking for. Regardless of whether the display is 6-bit, or just 8-bit that looks crap, you're still going to have a problem. Unless you're harboring a fantasy that Apple will give you a MacBook with a custom screen as way of an apology.<p>They've offered you a refund. Take the money and use it to buy the 15" MacBook with a better screen. And this time try checking out the product to make sure it meets your needs before splashing down thousands of dollars.

<i>There are 8bit portable displays, you know, and Apple should be a company that uses them, especially when they are generally known for great quality products, but instead, they went with the cheaper option, a lower bit display.</i><p>Translation: I am unhappy that Apple made a business decision to use a cheaper component that won't affect most users of the machine, but negatively affects my particular use of it.<p>More broadly, in this day and age I'd also be skeptical of the author's notion that the word "Pro" means it's explicitly designed for "professionals" as opposed to normal people. Look at most advertising - the word has come to mean nothing more than high-end consumer grade. For the most part, if something is made explicitly for professionals in a certain field it will rely on industry-specific promotions/reviews and knowledge to make itself known, as opposed to outright advertising. This is similar to the frequent use of the word "exclusive" in reference to availability - if it was really exclusive, it wouldn't be advertised.<p>And even if I'm wrong about those two points, when did "professional" come to mean "digital art professional"?

WOW. I'm finding this hard to believe. So the MacBook Pro 13" doesn't have an 8bit display, that's a little lame, we agree. But, here's the problem. You were <i>in</i> an Apple store and used the laptop and didn't notice. Then you took the laptop home and somehow 'found out' it doesn't support the millions of colors you apparently need (I'm no designer so I have no appreciation for this)... So... go back to the store and do the same 'check' you did for this laptop on a 15" model -- if it passes, problem solved, if not... well, maybe you should just do your designing on your 30" cinema which you now have working after receiving a $70 discount on the adapter (granted a $70 discount - the pain involved in not having it for a week or whatever). /rant

Does anyone know the price difference between 6-Bit and 8-Bit display panels? I can't really find any info on it. I've always thought, by comparison, that Macbook displays looked fantastic compared to the HP PC laptops I'm used to using at work. Just as good as the Samsung displays I use on my desktop. I do believe Apple still has their 30 day no questions asked, no restocking fee, return policy though so there's that.

oh my... just find the nearest apple store and direct your sharp eye at the displayed 15" and 17" macbook pros.

According to list-faces-display, I only need 376 colors.

So do the 15" and 17" have 6bit or 8bit displays? I keep reading conflicting answers...

Ah, the infallible Apple is, in fact, fallible.

Maybe I didn't read the article correctly, but if this guy is outputting to another screen, isn't it the video card that's not outputting the colors/resolution correctly, and that has nothing to do with whether the laptop screen is 6bit or 8bit?

Wait a second this guy is an icon/ui designer .... Which means he works on computer design so to be realistic most of his customers do not have "millions of colors".<p>He has a 30 inch cinema display that he can now use for designing and checking colors with the replacement cable but he still would rather rant and rave and call support hours on end rather than just replace the laptop.

Without dithering, 6 bit LCDs produce 191 colors. 8 bit LCDs produce 767 colors. If you want more than 767 colors you will be using dithering.<p>I think where people get confused here is the naive dithering where a group of 3 pixels (one of each color) are logically grouped together gives your the 252k and 16m numbers, but there is no reason that is the only desirable solution.<p>Consider sub-pixel rendering of typography. This abandons the traditional groups of 3 pixels and uses alternatives to gain better horizontal spatial resolution. Consider a white, lowercase 'L'. Depending where it appears on my screen it could either be a single white pixel under the naive "groups of three" dithering, or a yellow pixel next to a blue pixel. The catch is that unless I show you the borders of the screen you can't tell which it is.<p>Fortunately, I have a brand new 15" MacBook Pro under my fingers. Tonight when it gets dark I'll take a picture of a gradient, enlarge it beyond the capabilities of my eyes, and we will have an answer about what Apple does.