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Ted Nelson: It All Went Wrong at Xerox PARC

127 点作者 mgunes超过 11 年前

16 条评论

fidotron超过 11 年前
Oh dear. This is a Jef Raskin-esque rant of an old man that&#x27;s realised they aren&#x27;t going to be nearly as influential in the history books as they once thought. I would hope never to have to do the same, either from delusions in the present or anger at the end!<p>This business of underplaying or demeaning the importance of the use of icons, fonts, or familiar metaphors in favour of some abstract notion of an interface that no one has succeeded in ever implementing, not least because no one can agree on what it should be, is a running theme. This is often accompanied by banging on about the importance of what are really just clerical operations.<p>PARC, like any office of a large organisation, was invariably subject to revisionist history, office politics and all sorts of other nonsense, but attempting to deny the fact they did produce the direction for our last 30 years (and possibly into the near future) is ludicrous, much as a similar rant against Bell Labs would be misguided.<p>Most specifically he glosses over the fact that the nature of applications in the environments at PARC had far blurrier lines around the edges than say iOS apps do. They had things like OLE, which the web is clearly trending to recreate in the form of web components because though implementations have sucked the idea itself makes sense to people.<p>Paying close attention to the ideas from PARC you can see that the real philosophical difference is Nelson is closer to the idea of an all ruling single document format - whereas the vision PARC believed in was an all ruling single code format. Once more the parallel to the evolution of the web is clear, in that what began as a way to distribute documents is morphing, slowly, into a method for distributing rich code objects.
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michaelwww超过 11 年前
As user jasonwatkinspdx pointed out, he&#x27;s doing this at the Internet Archive headquarters. He&#x27;s probably for purpose of recording an oral history. It appears that rather than taking the route of singing the glories of great men past, he figures there&#x27;s enough of that, so he&#x27;s giving an alternate view that he calls &quot;computers for cynics&quot; to record some of the less glorious aspects of personal computer history. I think he&#x27;s made the right choice, although if you weren&#x27;t aware of the context he would seem to be a bit of a crank.<p>Edit: If you watch &quot;Computers for Cynics 4 - The Dance of Apple and Microsoft [1] he&#x27;s much less cranky and sings praises to Steve Jobs in a way that made me re-evaluate my opinion of Jobs.<p>[1] <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xL19f48m9U" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=_xL19f48m9U</a>
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joe_the_user超过 11 年前
This is a fascinating discussion. It is especially worth watching to the end.<p>Among other things, it seems like one could apply this argument to claim that the-web-as-interface is strictly better than the PARC-style GUI.<p>It well known, however, that Nelson objects to the web nearly as much as he objects to the &quot;PUI&quot;. And this is because web is at best as a leaky simulation of multi-part document rather than a real implementation of Nelson&#x27;s Xanadu vision (articulated in the 60&#x27;s).<p>The thing is the Xanadu vision, multi-part documents with living links (distributed version control, permissions and etc) is more or less impractical to implement fully.<p>On the other hand, the point that a single-person word-processor certainly could use a series of piece a-la the pre-computer method he describes.<p>As Nelson mentions, one of the key ways the PUI was able to dominate was by organizing a variety of operations with a single metaphor. I suspect that Nelson is underestimating how important that is for making computers accessible to people.
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leoc超过 11 年前
It&#x27;s Ted Nelson rattling through some of his computer-history notes on camera. So it&#x27;s good material, but it&#x27;s much better presented in his enjoyable and reasonably-priced book &#x2F;Geeks Bearing Gifts&#x2F; <a href="http://www.lulu.com/shop/ted-nelson/geeks-bearing-gifts/paperback/product-4312837.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lulu.com&#x2F;shop&#x2F;ted-nelson&#x2F;geeks-bearing-gifts&#x2F;pape...</a> .<p>I noted a couple of apparent mistakes: at <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6SUOeAqOjU#t=4m26s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=c6SUOeAqOjU#t=4m26s</a> Nelson says that Xerox paid Jobs to look at the PARC work, while AFAIK Apple in fact paid Xerox, in pre-IPO Apple stock. He also suggested that Xerox tried to bring in Jobs, when it seems to have been Apple who made the approach (at the instigation of Jef Raskin at Apple). <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6SUOeAqOjU#t=2m15s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=c6SUOeAqOjU#t=2m15s</a> is misleading. PARC was more-or-less forbidden to buy a DEC PDP-10, which would have reflected badly on the competing machines from Xerox&#x27;s new acquisition Scientific Data Systems, so PARC built a PDP-10 clone (the MAXC) in-house for their own use. That had very little to do with why they later designed and built the Altos: there was nothing remotely similar to an Alto out there that they could have bought (Nelson knows this).
rst超过 11 年前
Interesting thoughts; it would be nice to have a transcript. (It&#x27;s somewhat ironic in the light of the content that while he&#x27;s clearly reading a prepared text, it&#x27;s presented in a way that makes excerpting or reorganization nearly impossible; worse even than files of plain text.)
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syntaxfree超过 11 年前
I love Ted Nelson. He had a vision of a future that never materialized, and never will, but he&#x27;s not bitter. Instead, he&#x27;s keen on showing people that this &quot;future&quot; thing isn&#x27;t an inevitable train crashing towards us, but the result of many, many choices, none of them neutral.
endlessvoid94超过 11 年前
It&#x27;s very difficult to get past his tone in this video -- he seems angry and disgruntled.<p>I&#x27;m not saying he doesn&#x27;t have valid criticisms, but he&#x27;s not making it very easy to sympathize with him.
afterburner超过 11 年前
Someone run this through a compressor, or advise him to stop with the sudden shouts... hurts to listen to...
eliwjones超过 11 年前
His point about the bastardization of &quot;cut and paste&quot; is very important in my opinion. Hell, he ends with this..<p>Bringing a complex tangle of code to heel becomes tractable if you just print it out, cut it up, and rearrange the parts.<p>It would be fairly sexy to be able to do this on your computer... granted, you need a lot of screen space to pull it off.<p>Oh, and I&#x27;m ignorant of Ted Nelson.... But it seems fairly obvious these talks are meant to be taken with some humour.
rch超过 11 年前
I enjoy Ted Nelson when he&#x27;s sharing historical context, but I hope he realizes that most of the salient points he is making are perfectly obvious to rather a lot of technical people. Affecting meaningful change or progress will take more than impassioned pontification.
mankypro超过 11 年前
Some dude once said &quot;Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it&quot;, and he was right.
miket超过 11 年前
Is he sitting on a church pew?
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acqq超过 11 年前
Steve Jobs would just say: &quot;real artists ship&quot;<p><a href="http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Real_Artists_Ship.txt" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.folklore.org&#x2F;StoryView.py?story=Real_Artists_Ship...</a>
nickbauman超过 11 年前
Is it just me or is Ted&#x27;s vision basically OpenDoc?<p><a href="http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDoc" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;OpenDoc</a>
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AlecEifel超过 11 年前
Old man, bitter that Alan Key, Steve Jobs &amp; Xerox PARC got more money &amp; credit than he ever did. Who the hell cares about his gripes? The &quot;legendary story&quot; was generally corroborated by all parties involved.<p>Ted Nelson has yet to admit missing the boat by never being able to release anything in over 40 years. He is a super-consultant &amp; inverse opposite of what Y&amp;C stands for. A great visionary with zero implementation skill. Time to die.
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agumonkey超过 11 年前
I wonder if meant &#x27;PARC User Interface aka POOEY&#x27; ?