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The Moderately Enthusiastic Programmer

129 点作者 caisah超过 11 年前

23 条评论

danielweber超过 11 年前
&gt; And if I were looking for a job right now, I’d feel pressured to fake it. Either I’d feel like an impostor, or I’d feel resentment for trying to boost my emotional commitment to a coding project to an unrealistic fever-pitch.<p>Software recruiting seems designed to produce one of two goals:<p>1. Repeatedly break your heart, or<p>2. Turn you into a psychopath you can fake the passion and interest and dedication that companies demand at the very first step of the interview, when they know they flush out 90% of the people at that stage.<p>And, remember, this is what it&#x27;s like when the market is <i>good</i> for employees.
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nilkn超过 11 年前
A friend recently started a job programming for Enterprise Rent A Car. Did you know they even regularly hired programmers? I didn&#x27;t, but he seems to like it. The company I&#x27;m at once interviewed a programmer who was working for Home Depot.<p>The reality is there are actually plenty of programming positions that are perfectly suited for a career programmer who doesn&#x27;t particularly love it and just wants a steady paycheck and a decent home life. But these positions aren&#x27;t at Google or Facebook or the hottest Silicon Valley startup, and they&#x27;re not going to ever pay $150k+ or even $100k+ (they might start at half that). You don&#x27;t need to know what a suffix tree is. You don&#x27;t need to have ever heard of bloom filters. These positions probably aren&#x27;t at many of the companies posting in the 37signals job board, because that board is naturally going to attract job seekers who are more enthusiastic about programming as both a craft and a means to a paycheck.<p>I think a lot of posters here seem to be wanting too much in exchange for too little. In every industry, it&#x27;s always been the case that the top companies have tried to hire the most &quot;passionate&quot; employees--and yes, that means employees who might work overtime while smiling about it. I don&#x27;t think this is so evil when there are plenty of other choices.<p>I do think it&#x27;s a bit disingenuous, though, to want to be part of the next explosively successful company while still putting in the minimum effort to get a steady paycheck. This forum is disproportionately full of people wanting to get at least somewhat wealthy off of software development, people who want the same compensation as big firm attorneys and doctors. Those lawyers probably work more than the average over-worked programmer at a top company, and the doctors almost certainly do. The attorneys and doctors also all necessarily went to graduate school and probably took on a lot of debt that the average programmer doesn&#x27;t have. The fact is that, across <i>all industries</i>, jobs with this level of compensation are rarely 30-40 hour a week lifestyle jobs.
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swayvil超过 11 年前
What they mean is that they want you to <i>appear</i> passionate. They don&#x27;t really give two poops about your internal state. What they want is the promise that you will work unto exhaustion and then a bit beyond, with a smile on your face. They want the promise that you are willing to <i>fake passion</i>. Fakeness is very important in today&#x27;s fast-paced work environment. Then you die.
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mattgreenrocks超过 11 年前
I&#x27;m similarly suspicious of all job ads that mention &quot;fast-paced&quot;; I read it as &quot;we value your ability to throw things at the wall and see what sticks over careful analysis.&quot;<p>Another thing I notice: the more I mature as a person and a developer, the fewer job ads actually interest me. I suppose that&#x27;s inevitable, however, as I continue to hone in on what domain I want to work in.
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Gracana超过 11 年前
&gt; But sometimes I worry that it’s code for &quot;we want to exploit your lack of boundaries.&quot;<p>That seems quite true for the video game industry.<p><a href="https://www.jacobinmag.com/2013/11/video-game-industry/" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jacobinmag.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;11&#x2F;video-game-industry&#x2F;</a>
doktrin超过 11 年前
Is this unique to programming? I&#x27;m fairly certain this holds true in a number of other industries. Journalism, fashion, design come to mind.<p>Employers are <i>strongly</i> incentivized to actively seek out the most exploitable of potential hires. It&#x27;s deeply unfortunate.
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k_kelly超过 11 年前
People are saying this is pedantry, but there&#x27;s a good point being made here. Coding passion is a deep cold analytic burn that is nothing like what people assume it to be. It typically is a reflection of the interest you have in the project not the product. Most developers can hate what they work on and do incredible work if they love what they are doing minute to minute.<p>No I won&#x27;t be a passionate evangelist about spreadsheets, but I could get happily lost in the codebase for Google Docs. People code for 48 hours when lost in the happy delirium of discovering some new problem, that&#x27;s passion. However it might have nothing to do with their personal investment for the finished product. In fact they likely really enjoy the challenge of fixing something broken more than seeing it run once fixed.<p>Putting passion on a job spec is really quite unreasonable, but it seems easier than saying single minded to a fault and willing to sacrifice personal health to do a bit more hacking.
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KiwiCoder超过 11 年前
Indeed, the word &quot;passionate&quot; with reference to programming is going the same way as &quot;free&quot; has gone for marketing; over-used and misrepresented to the point of being meaningless.<p>On the plus side, it means that the class of employers who advertise their vacancies in this fashion become easier to identify and avoid. Or exploit.
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beat超过 11 年前
I, too, am starting to hate the way &quot;passionate&quot; is casually tossed around in our industry. When I see phrases like &quot;passionate about multi-level marketing&quot;, I kinda throw up in my mouth a little.
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kogir超过 11 年前
I&#x27;ve always read &quot;passionate&quot; in job posts as &quot;excited about learning better methods, technologies, and tools&quot; and &quot;not satisfied with the status quo, and continually making things better.&quot; Neither of these require an insane commitment outside work, or necessarily makes you easier to take advantage of.<p>People who have &quot;paid their dues&quot; by going to school and learning one language, and then <i>never</i> update their skills unless forced to do exist, and working with them sucks. You&#x27;re always fighting a &quot;but such and such already works!&quot; attitude. Programming by flipping switches on computers made using vacuum tubes worked. Thankfully someone wasn&#x27;t satisfied and wanted something better.
lostcolony超过 11 年前
I almost entirely agree with this post.<p>Every place I have worked, I have consistently been among the most performant. I am relied upon to solve many of the hardest problems, despite my age, because I have a track record of learning enough to solve them very, very quickly. I will find myself thinking about the current problems my team faces, as well as odds and ends and interesting behavior in the languages, frameworks, etc, that we use, even outside of work hours. I love learning and teaching new technologies, and am frequently the one to introduce new tech into projects at work (along with giving talks to teammates about how it works).<p>However, I have never worked more than 40 hours a week.<p>If there was a dire emergency due to things failing in production, and I had hit my 40 hour limit, I&#x27;d not -mind- spending time investigating&#x2F;fixing it, but I would not tolerate a workplace that expected it outside of that kind of issue.<p>When I play with code outside of work, it&#x27;s usually to learn something, not write something useful. I have almost nothing on Github because most of what I&#x27;ve done outside of it has been things that already have solutions out there; I just want to learn more about the problem, rather than seeing some deficiency in the existing solution.<p>I don&#x27;t consider myself &#x27;passionate&#x27;, as such. Coding is something I try to keep compartmentalized; I may allow it to come up in conversation when it&#x27;s contextually relevant, but I actively try and avoid talking about it, and I don&#x27;t feel any need to spend inordinate amounts of time on it outside of working hours.<p>And yet there&#x27;s this demand for passionate programmers. Which, yes, seems to come from companies that expect you to put the code above all else. You see it in their perks; food and gyms and doctors and sleeping pods, why do you even need to go home, you can stay here! No, I want work&#x2F;life balance, and to have that balance I need separation.<p>This definitely feels like a bind; I have to cross companies out like Google and such, because I don&#x27;t want to work at a place that seems to have the expectation I should stay at work beyond 8 hours. And I likely wouldn&#x27;t be hired even if I pretended to ignore that feeling, as I don&#x27;t feel any inclination to fake interviews any more. &quot;How would you solve (algorithm question typical of interviews, but which I don&#x27;t remember offhand how to solve)?&quot; &quot;I would Google it, as that sounds like the kind of thing others have solved, and there&#x27;s no way I&#x27;ll be able to come up with as good a solution in 20 minutes, on a whiteboard, as I&#x27;d find online in 5&quot; &quot;But what if you didn&#x27;t have the internet available to you?&quot; &quot;I would work on constructing the internet, then, nevermind your problem, because I&#x27;ve apparently time traveled to before it existed and there&#x27;s money to be made&quot;. &quot;Fine, but just, how would you solve -this- problem, if it wasn&#x27;t already solved?&quot; &quot;Probably go sit by myself to mull it over a while.&quot; &quot;But I want you to solve it right now.&quot; &quot;Why? It&#x27;s research material; no one else has ever solved it, apparently, I can&#x27;t just write out how to do it in such a case.&quot; &quot;Well, we really think you ought to be able to.&quot; &quot;Yeah? I guess we&#x27;re done here.&quot;
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incision超过 11 年前
Like so many things, I have mixed feelings about this.<p>I don’t have a problem with the word “passionate” and I could understand an employer who genuinely desires that.<p>Problem is, I don’t think most people actually want anything of the sort. More likely, I think they’re just following the fad of grandiose overblown adjectives and mimicking the motions of “only the best” interviewing of companies whose trajectories they’d love to emulate.<p>The typical 201X boilerplate sums it up nicely:<p><i>“Are you passionate about technology? Do you write beautiful code? Come help us change the world.”</i><p>I’d wager most organizations shouldn’t want much less need someone with passion in more than a handful of positions - more like competent, hard workers who will execute the vision put before them.<p>In my experience, unless the stars have aligned, passionate people are a horrible choice for most roles. Their passion is not some simple resource that can be redirected efficiently into whatever management cares about, it’s an intense, consuming, emotional drive with all the massive potential negatives those words suggest.<p>Good luck getting even average performance out that passionate someone on a project they don’t believe in and duck for cover when they deem the CTO &#x2F; founder is a fool driving the organization in the wrong direction.
qwerta超过 11 年前
I think passionate and enthusiastic is overused word without meaning. For me it even has negative tone.<p>Too often it is used for greenhorn with no skills, while veterans with deep knowledge are branded in negative way. Someone who is &#x27;passionate&#x27; is usually badly treated and works for peanuts.
marcusr超过 11 年前
Sometimes words just seem to get overused by everyone at the same time. In the UK at the moment, every single cookery and bakery program insists their recipe will give you the PERFECT X, where X is cake, meal, dinner party. We can&#x27;t just make great food, it has to be perfect.
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hcarvalhoalves超过 11 年前
It&#x27;s because for recruiting, passionate means: we want people able to be overworked and still keep a good mood.
brimstedt超过 11 年前
When I write &quot;passionate&quot; in a job ad, I mean for the person to be enthusiastic about code &#x2F;programming.<p>We have different teams in my company. Some require people who chose to become a programmer for the pay, who may not care so much if they write the same code day in and day out, who uses the computer only at work and cares more for Facebook than hackernews.<p>Some teams require passionate programmers - the kind who finds <i>good</i> solutions, that makes sure that the code is better when they commit, not worse and who prefers to read about technology rather than gossip in their spare time.<p>It&#x27;s not about putting 80 hours a week into the job, it&#x27;s about being an expert in programming. It&#x27;s not about being passionate for the product neither, because the job they will do is often product agnostic.
pjump超过 11 年前
Avdi&#x27;s overanalyzing it. Everybody&#x27;s simply using the word to mean `enthusiastic` these days. And I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s the primary things companies want -- they definitely want to appear enthusiastic&#x2F;passionate about their products to their customers (cuz enthusiasm sells if customers can&#x27;t truly assess the quality of what they&#x27;re getting), but as long as their employees are doing a great job on the inside of the company, who cares if they&#x27;re super passionate&#x2F;enthusiastic. It&#x27;s the job of the sales people to put the passion gloss on the final product. Enthusiasm on the inside doesn&#x27;t even necessarily mean `better work results`. Enthusiasm pushes you farther but it won&#x27;t magically make up for lack of skills.
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nickthemagicman超过 11 年前
I am so glad someone posted this.<p>I am personally NOT passionate about programming.<p>I am passionate about creating things!<p>It seems counter to evolution and human nature to be passionate about staring at a computer monitor all day long in sensory deprivation.<p>The problem with tech is that it encourages unbalanced people and unhealthy lifestyles due to the unreasonable expectations of knowledge acquisition placed on your average programmer.<p>And you get bizzare mole people in China who just program all day and google cultures where you live at the office and code.<p>I don&#x27;t know what the solution is. We seem to be good at making other peoples lives more efficient but we can&#x27;t make our own lives more efficient.
kotakota超过 11 年前
I agree that the overuse of &quot;passion&quot; in programming job ads is kind of silly. The only thing about job ads that&#x27;s bothers me more is when recruiters say &quot;work on hard&#x2F;challenging&#x2F;exciting&#x2F;fun&#x2F;important problems&quot;. Simply because 99% of the time their &quot;hard problems&quot; are neither hard nor real problems. These are problems that our community of developers has created for ourselves though. Since a lot of developers choose to change jobs every year or two the recruiters have to use phrases that spark an interest in candidates.
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rsobers超过 11 年前
I have the utmost respect for Avdi, but I think he&#x27;s being way too pedantic here. It&#x27;s just a word.<p>Literally no one ever who has written &quot;passion&quot; in a programming job description has demanded an uncontrollable, foaming-at-the-mouth desire to to work on their project lest ye be fired at once.
thaddeusmt超过 11 年前
Hyperbole. Words like &quot;awesome&quot; and &quot;incredible&quot; have also lost their original meaning and power. Things can&#x27;t just be &quot;good&quot; or &quot;moderately enthusiastic&quot; anymore - it sounds too weak, and doesn&#x27;t cut through the noise these days.
benihana超过 11 年前
Ugh. &quot;I&#x27;m going to fixate on this one word, get completely pedantic about the semantics of the word and use it as the basis of my argument.&quot;<p>If I were this guy and I was looking for a job, I&#x27;d be less worried about not having enough passion. I&#x27;d be sweating the fact that I can&#x27;t parse the meaning of a word based on the context it&#x27;s used in. That&#x27;s a pretty valuable skill to have as a programmer. I&#x27;d be worried about being overly pedantic about things - most people don&#x27;t want to work with a pedant who can&#x27;t see beyond strict definitions.
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corresation超过 11 年前
There is a strong selectivity bias regarding the source of job descriptions being quoted from: Look at the average software development job listing on Monster and similes and you&#x27;ll find the standard banal, career-programmer targeting lists of technologies and middle-of-the-road expectations.<p>I also don&#x27;t think &quot;passion&quot; means either that you&#x27;re Jesus Christ (where the term &quot;the Passion&quot; means &quot;to suffer&quot;, not that he was really into it), or that you must love the code more than your child. But many of us have written or encountered code that feels so elegant and perfect that we get giddy with enthusiasm about it. We&#x27;ve used tools and technologies that seem so game changing that we evangelize them enthusiastically.<p>That is passion, and it is absolutely real. Some people have it, and many people don&#x27;t.<p>None of that says anything about whether it&#x27;s a good hire trait or not, and it&#x27;s possible if not probable that many positions do not need, and may even suffer from, a passionate developer.
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