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Rethinking What We Mean by ‘Mobile Web’

60 点作者 abdophoto大约 11 年前

19 条评论

dewitt大约 11 年前
The crux of John&#x27;s argument is this:<p><pre><code> &quot;We should think of the web as anything transmitted using HTTP and HTTPS.&quot; </code></pre> Which unfortunately, because there&#x27;s hardly a single modern internet application or service that doesn&#x27;t or can&#x27;t run over HTTP(S), it inflates the definition of &quot;web&quot; to be so broadly inclusive that it becomes an altogether meaningless term.<p>It may be his intention to position native &quot;apps&quot; as something not in opposition to, but rather a part of, the web. But that does a disservice to the original meaning of the web, which thrived in large part because it <i>wasn&#x27;t</i> just another native app connected to the net.<p>Instead, I&#x27;d recommend pushing back a bit, and trying to retain the other critical elements of what made the web the web, such as transparently introspectable formats, RESTful documentment-oriented architectures, hyperlinkable URLs, crawlability, freely-licensed and open protocols, etc.
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PeterisP大约 11 年前
It&#x27;s not the web (and not like the web) if I can&#x27;t have deep links from one app to a specific page of content <i>inside</i> another one.<p>It&#x27;s not the web (and not like the web) if I can&#x27;t share or include in my own site&#x2F;app a link to a piece of content from your app in a way that the creator didn&#x27;t explicitly design in; a link that someone else on an entirely different platform will be able to reach without hurdles.<p>It&#x27;s not the web (and not like the web) if I need any kind of permission from others to have my content reachable, searchable and available to everyone in the world.<p>The web is not a set of applications or sites. The web is in the <i>interconnection</i> of those applications or sites.
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buro9大约 11 年前
What we&#x27;re losing is the browser as the client for applications.<p>And in doing so we&#x27;re losing the extremely low barrier to entry for new apps, and we&#x27;re introducing centralised controllers of what we may access.<p>It discourages the tinkerers and self-publishers, turns users into plain consumers, it creates gate-keepers to the new lands and reduces privacy.<p>I like apps, but I like openness more.
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talkingstove大约 11 年前
Original version of this story had the end line cut off (<a href="https://twitter.com/gruber/status/453598509191929856" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;gruber&#x2F;status&#x2F;453598509191929856</a>). If this was an app, it would either have been rejected (for iOS) or need an update. Gruber didn&#x27;t need to ask anyone for permission to fix it or having everyone download an update. He just fixed it, the one canonical version that everyone will see going forward. That is why I don&#x27;t want to rethink what we mean by mobile web.
nir大约 11 年前
1. I&#x27;m not sure there&#x27;s any evidence of Apple loosening its grip the app store because a certain genre is popular on Android (eg Swype)<p>2. Apps take longer to develop, require more skill &amp; time investment, and (if iOS) have to go through byzantine approval process. This mean longer iterations, less risk taking =&gt; slower innovation<p>3. The higher barrier of entry keeps a lot of people of the type that made the Web interesting from creating apps. Web dev was simple enough to allow non-techies to create some pretty interesting stuff. Most apps feel like they&#x27;ve been created by corporate dev teams or geeky college kids.<p>4. There&#x27;s definitely a class of apps which couldn&#x27;t be implemented as web apps - but that&#x27;s mostly because the OS provides a limited API to the phone&#x27;s features, not some inherent weakness of the Web model.
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JoelSutherland大约 11 年前
CDixon: It&#x27;s bad that the mobile web is losing to mobile apps because apps are heavily controlled by the dominant app stores owners that censor things and take a 30% cut.<p>Gruber: Mobile apps and the Mobile web are the same thing because both use HTTP. And the walled garden thing isn&#x27;t bad because Google and Apple compete and Bitcoin seems to be succeeding anyway.
briantakita大约 11 年前
&gt; Like water flowing downhill, users gravitate to the best experiences<p>This is quite the loaded statement &amp; a self-fulfilling prophecy in practice. It&#x27;s quite common to see a full page prompt to download the App in big letters, and tiny text to continue onto the mobile site.<p>Of course it&#x27;s a better experience to use the app. The first experience of the mobile website is an intrusive advertisement saying &quot;use the app&quot;.<p>Given an apples to apples comparison, I find that mobile apps often don&#x27;t have all of the features of the website. Youtube comments is a good example. You simply cannot edit comments on the mobile app.<p>Native Mobile apps also fragment development effort. This leads to a worse overall platform experience, since the development is fragmented to n platforms (don&#x27;t forget about Windows &amp; Firefox phones). When new features need to be added, they need to be developed on all platforms. The more complex the feature-set &amp; UX, the worse this issue becomes.<p>This fragmentation is mitigated by using a tool like PhoneGap. However, you still have added complexity via versioning. It&#x27;s overcome-able.<p>My current project has a rich mobile web experience. We also use phonegap, so all development is in sync. The featureset is complex &amp; rapidly evolves. There are many edge cases. It would not be a practical business with n codebases.
Touche大约 11 年前
&gt; The new mobile app-centric order hasn’t been a problem for Instagram, WhatsApp, Vine, Secret, or dozens of other new companies.<p>I don&#x27;t know what Secret is, but Instagram, WhatsApp, and Vine aren&#x27;t companies. They are divisions within Facebook and Twitter.<p>In fact, we should question why there are no big companies that have risen from the app-world that come close to the web&#x27;s most successful companies: Amazon, Google, Facebook, even Yahoo.<p>That should tell you something that all of the app companies wind up being bought by web companies.
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AshleysBrain大约 11 年前
&gt; &quot;Does anyone really think that mobile games would be better off written to run in web browser tabs?&quot;<p>I do! There is nothing to install; it will be available anywhere and work on any device, not just in the MegaCorp App Store for certain devices; it&#x27;s probably more secure since there are no permission prompts that might sneak certain capabilities past you; you can publish whatever content you want without having to get prior approval; you can update whenever you like without having to wait for acceptance. Obviously there are some practical concerns (performance, features, monetisation etc), but things are getting better. E.g. on the tech side, WebGL is now available on pretty much every mobile OS except iOS (for Android, use Chrome), &#x27;add to homescreen&#x27; gives you an app-like icon and fullscreen experience on both iOS and Android (again with Chrome), and fullscreen API support gives you an app-like experience even from the browser itself. I think in the long run that the mobile web and native apps will have approximately the same capabilities for the majority of use cases, and the key differences will only be distribution and monetisation - both of which are solvable (startup idea anyone?)<p>For me, the main point is the web has always been an open platform you can do what you like with. The control is all with the developer. App stores take that control away, locking your app in a vendor-specific walled garden - assuming they let you in - which they can then evict you from at any time for any reason. Surely that&#x27;s not better than the web?
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jkw大约 11 年前
I think there&#x27;s no question that apps have brought a wide range of interaction capabilities that couldn&#x27;t have existed in a web browser-centric world. However, I believe that Gruber is missing Dixon&#x27;s point that an app-only world bring forward many disadvantages as well.<p>I think both agree that without native apps, we wouldn&#x27;t have many of the functionality that we have today. But, there&#x27;s still the real risk that any app could be removed or prohibited from the App Store for unclear reasons.
azakai大约 11 年前
The big and real difference between mobile apps and mobile web is that Apple and Google control mobile apps, but no one controls the mobile web.<p>Yes, they all use HTTP&#x2F;HTTPS, and yes, they often connect to the same services, with desktop versions running as web pages and mobile versions as apps. That&#x27;s all true. But the IMO primary difference remains, which is that apps are controlled by two corporations while the web is not.
higherpurpose大约 11 年前
I feel like the more Apple is losing relevancy and market share, the stupider Gruber gets, in his quest to defend anything Apple does.<p>Saying Apple banning Bitcoin is fine, because Bitcoin will do well in other places anyway, is like saying banning freedom of speech in Turkey is fine, because freedom of speech is doing well in US.
bluthru大约 11 年前
I&#x27;m surprised he didn&#x27;t mention iOS&#x27;s &quot;Add to home screen&quot; functionality for web sites. I like how a web site can be given equal standing like that, and is easier to &quot;install&quot; than the app store. It seems like regular users don&#x27;t often do this, however.
benaiah大约 11 年前
&quot;How could messaging apps like WhatsApp and Line even exist in a browser-only world?&quot;<p>... what?<p>The same way they have for ages, I suppose. These are messaging-over-IP apps with basic UIs and little to no difficult problems with regards to client performance. I sort-of-maybe-agree with most of what he says here, but it&#x27;s bafflingly ridiculous statements like this mixed in with mostly accurate (if somewhat biased, just like everyone else) that make me shake my head at Gruber every time I read him.
normloman大约 11 年前
You can&#x27;t just say mobile apps are the web. The web is a platform independent open standard, and apps are a closed eco system within app stores.
matznerd大约 11 年前
I used to view hn from the web (hackerweb), but I switched to the minihack app and haven&#x27;t looked back. It saves my login info, allows me to switch from story to comments without going back to the main page and a few other features I much prefer. I am an advocate of free and open platforms, but the experience in the app (paid app mind you) is just that much better. How can the web compete?
danielrakh大约 11 年前
I think the more important point to discuss is the trend of our &quot;smart devices&quot;, specifically wearables. The software is becoming increasingly coupled with the hardware. Think about that for a second. Web languages have evolved within the browser. That is their native environment. What happens when the browser does not exist on a future device?
spankalee大约 11 年前
Content doesn&#x27;t form a web without links.<p>And the original idea of the web is that the user, or the user agent, can traverse these links to move navigate the web. Without a standard document format that includes hyperlinks, I don&#x27;t see how it can be called the web.
benaiah大约 11 年前
I think one of the large problems with the web app space is display. There is no way for a good web app to be put front and center and displayed to users; all the web app marketplaces (I say all, but Chrome Web Store seems to be the only one that actually matters) are cluttered, confusing, filled with links to websites masquerading as apps, and generally useless; and the installation process is cumbersome, unnatural, obtuse, and requires understanding of a device and abstraction of concepts about a device on a level most users simply don&#x27;t grok. Yes, most web apps that directly compete with native apps are worse, but there are times when I, as a computer-literate developer, wish I could effectively use a web app, but simply have no way to integrate it with the way I work in a way that actually saves me time.<p>The web app evengelists (of which I am certainly one) often miss the importance of the little affordances that web apps don&#x27;t have. This is both on the user and developer side, though the problem is primarily on the user&#x27;s side, as developers can work around things. It is <i>tremendously</i> important that I be able to get instantly into my app by typing in my normal application launcher. I want to use the app without having to think about the technologies undergirding it first. It is <i>tremendously</i> important that I be able to silo a web app to its own window and be able to alt-tab between it and my browser. It is <i>tremendously</i> important that my basic shortcuts work in the app without doing strange things and occasionally killing it all together.<p>The problem is, this can&#x27;t be achieved without large amounts of work from either the user (standard web apps with an arcane mix of desktop shortcuts or their equivalent and bizarre browser configuration), the developer (node-webkit apps like Atom or Light Table), or both (Chrome packaged apps, which manage to combine the worst of pretty much every world).<p>Ironically, the system on which web apps work best as part of the system, bar none (except ChromeOS because duh), is iOS, and even it has fundamental issues (no background persistence, easy to follow a link and be unable to go back to where you came from, various UI standards not working by default with the web) that make web apps, even the best of them, stand out like a sore thumb.<p>There&#x27;s been a lot of work recently to fix this, but we&#x27;re simply not to the point that web apps are anywhere in the same universe as indistinguishable from native apps. Personally, I have an optimistic view of the future in regards to the issue, but I also see Gruber&#x27;s point: we web evengelists are being unrealistic when we blame the current failure of the web as an application delivery system for general-purpose applications for both desktop and mobile on some Apple&#x27;s nefarious &quot;closed garden&quot; or other such complaints. Reality is, the web isn&#x27;t there yet, and until it is, the web we have is the one we have, and we shouldn&#x27;t be bemoaning the death of open standards while the whole world is speaking HTTP, just because our specific darlings aren&#x27;t up to par yet.<p>This was slightly longer than intended. My apologies.