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Boycott systemd

258 点作者 martinp大约 11 年前

43 条评论

nemasu大约 11 年前
Okay, well, while I agree with most of the points they make, there just isn't a viable alternative. I maintain noop Linux (nooplinux.org), it started using OpenRC, but when udev was merged into systemd, things got very complicated, eventually the switch was made. Systemd is very fast, the 'init.d' scripts are way better, udev work very well...I don't mind thinking about moving back away from systemd (because I really do have a love-hate relationship with it), but what am I supposed to go back to? OpenRC/SysV-whatever? Heck no. Upstart? Nope. ...is there even an alternative that makes sense? Because moving back to SysV would be a step back.
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SEMW大约 11 年前
&quot;Unix philosophy&quot; seems to be one of those phrases that everyone likes agreeing with because you can use it to either justify or condemn anything you like.<p>E.g. you could perfectly plausibly make the argument that systemd&#x27;s return to inetd-style service starting (on-demand and in-parallel through socket activation) is a lot more unix-philosophy-like than the SysVinit way.
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theanirudh大约 11 年前
The author of systemd, Lennart Poettering busts some systemd myths in his blog post <a href="http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;0pointer.de&#x2F;blog&#x2F;projects&#x2F;the-biggest-myths.html</a>
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andrelaszlo大约 11 年前
Tom Gundersen discussed the move to systemd on the Arch Linux forums a couple of years ago.<p><a href="https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1149530#p1149530" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bbs.archlinux.org&#x2F;viewtopic.php?pid=1149530#p1149530</a><p>Summary:<p><pre><code> 0) it is hotplug capable 1) we can know the state of the system 2) it is modular 3) it allows dbus&#x2F;udev to go back to doing the task they are meant to do 4) we can reduce the number of explicit ordering dependencies between daemons 5) we get a lot of security&#x2F;sandboxing features for free 6) systemd service files can be written and distributed upstream 7) systemd is a cross-distro project 8) logind will finally deliver on what consolekit was supposed to do 9) systemd is fast</code></pre>
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vidarh大约 11 年前
They&#x27;d get <i>much</i> further if they actually came up with a better alternative.<p>Even <i>if</i> all of there points were objectively true, it doesn&#x27;t matter when sticking with the old init is so much worse in many ways.<p>People aren&#x27;t picking systemd because it&#x27;s perfect, but because both the mess of init scripts it is replacing, and alternatives like upstart,is seen as worse&#x2F;too lacking.<p>EDIT: Btw. this just got me to install systemd on one of our dev&#x2F;test Debian boxes at work, to start testing it.
blueskin_大约 11 年前
I&#x27;d rather see init&#x27;s problems fixed (i.e. start services in parallel), but systemd is far better than upstart (edit: got it to load at last, I see it&#x27;s not by upstart fans, so ignore that last part).<p>That said, a lot of systemd seems like a really stupid idea to me, e.g. binary logs, the massively increased SPOF size, and the &quot;do everything&quot; mentality. Unfortunately, I don&#x27;t know of any distros that aren&#x27;t using it now (edit: I didn&#x27;t even realise Slackware was still a thing...), and upstart is even more of a joke than systemd.
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mateuszf大约 11 年前
Em .. no, thank you. I think that systemd is a good step in the direction of unifying different distributions. Also, many argument presented on that page have been debunked or are actually good things.
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fidotron大约 11 年前
Lennart is rapidly becoming the new Drepper.<p>As long as characters like this persist Linux as a direct end user system is going nowhere, and it will remain a lower level component abstracted away by higher level platforms, as in Android or Chrome OS.
_pmf_大约 11 年前
At <a href="https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Talk:Comparison_of_init_systems" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;wiki.gentoo.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Talk:Comparison_of_init_systems</a> all of the features that are unique to systemd are immediately something that I&#x27;d rather not have integrated.
Gonzih大约 11 年前
For me it always feels like people who are bashing on systemd never actually used it. I was very concerned about systemd for long time. And nowadays I use it on all my machines&#x2F;servers. And it just makes my life so much easier. I&#x27;m happy. I like it. I can agree with lot of points on this website. But still systemd makes my happy. So sorry, but no.
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ealexhudson大约 11 年前
&#x27;systemd flies in the face of the Unix philosophy: &quot;do one thing and do it well,&quot; representing a complex collection of dozens of binaries&#x27;<p>So, a collection of lots of single-purpose binaries that work together flies in the face of &quot;do one thing and do it well&quot;. I kinda stopped reading at this point, which was sadly quite high up the page.
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binaryapparatus大约 11 年前
I see this as related and it is less than a month old: <a href="http://www.muktware.com/2014/04/linus-torvalds-happy-systemd-author-kay-sievers/25151" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.muktware.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;04&#x2F;linus-torvalds-happy-systemd...</a> <a href="https://plus.google.com/u/0/+TheodoreTso/posts/K7ijdmxJ8PF" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;plus.google.com&#x2F;u&#x2F;0&#x2F;+TheodoreTso&#x2F;posts&#x2F;K7ijdmxJ8PF</a><p>I am not much of a systemd fan so I may be biased but it is interesting read anyway.
Spittie大约 11 年前
Okay, I like to think as myself as an open minded individual. I&#x27;m not a systemd fanboy either, I just research and use what I believe it&#x27;s better for myself. There is a reason why I can&#x27;t consider the anti-systemd guys seriously: It all seems FUD to me. Take for example point 8, &quot;you have to reboot to update systemd. Okay, not really, but the update might go wrong!&quot;. Really?<p>Going point by point:<p>1. As the site says, systemd is both an init system and a collection of programs that make sense to have in a system. One can already strip most of everything from it (I think only journald is mandatory), and there is usually a stable api between every component, so one can simply replace them.<p>In fact, I believe that half of the complains about systemd would disappear if it all the tools were developed in a different repository and not under a &quot;systemd umbrella&quot; (Isn&#x27;t one of the major point pro-BSD the fact that the base system is all developed together?)<p>2. If you want to use systemd but have plain-text logs, journald can pass everything to syslog and similar daemons. What everyone forget is the bonus that journald provides: no more &quot;cat &#x2F;var&#x2F;log&#x2F;*.log | grep &lt;program&gt; | sort -u&quot; and hope that applications log in the same format, I have everything in a single place and can browse them by unit, by user, by time, by urgency...<p>3. I can agree with that. But it&#x27;s not that sysinitv or upstart worked on non-linux systems (without ugly hacks)<p>4. And? I&#x27;m not sure what&#x27;s the problem here. udev and dbus are mandatory by pretty much anything that&#x27;s not a .sh script nowadays.<p>5. Okay, fair point. &quot;It assumes that users and admins are dumb&quot; can you really blame them?<p>6. Fair point again, systemd is bigger than sysinitv. But that&#x27;s almost saying that we should all use microhttpd instead of nginx&#x2F;apache because it&#x27;s smaller.<p>Also the simple fact that it&#x27;s included in RHEL 7 mean that it got audicted by RH, which make me feel safe.<p>7. That&#x27;s just FUD. Here&#x27;s Gnome 3.10 running on OpenBSD: <a href="http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&amp;sid=20140219085851" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;undeadly.org&#x2F;cgi?action=article&amp;sid=20140219085851</a><p>Gnome will depend on systemd when under wayland, that&#x27;s instead a fact. Actually, on logind, which has an api that anyone can reimplemnt (<a href="https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blogs.gnome.org&#x2F;ovitters&#x2F;2013&#x2F;09&#x2F;25&#x2F;gnome-and-logind...</a>)<p>8. Not true, again. Right now, on my system:<p><pre><code> pgrep -l systemd 1 systemd 354 systemd-journal 386 systemd-udevd 766 systemd-logind 1190 systemd 1754 systemd </code></pre> Also, I still fail to see why &quot;it&#x27;s big, it will fail&quot; is a thing. What matters is code quality, not size.<p>9. Fair point.<p>10. This might or not be possible, I don&#x27;t have much experience in writing unit files so I don&#x27;t really know the limits.<p>11. Nobody is forcing anyone to adopt systemd. It&#x27;s getting adopted because distributions and developers think it&#x27;s better.<p>And after months&#x2F;years of complains about systemd, I still haven&#x27;t seen anyone trying to produce anything that has the same advantages for sysadmins and programmers.<p>Really, that&#x27;s how it feels: &quot;I&#x27;m going to complain and complain and complain, but I won&#x27;t lift a finger to change the course of events&quot;.<p>Can anyone make a point in favor of sysinitv (or against systemd) without bringing in abstract concept as &quot;Unix philosophy&quot; and plain wrong facts?
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mrmondo大约 11 年前
For Linux to keep evolving, part of evolution is mutation, the strong will flourish while the weak will die.<p>Regardless of what init system is right or wrong, the beauty of the Linux ecosystem is we can afford for different distributions each to make different decisions.<p>Systemd seems functionally better than both sysvinit and upstart and it certainly doesn&#x27;t seem to be the root of all evil like this article makes out.<p>I don&#x27;t believe that everyone boycotting systemd over what&#x27;s currently out there will aid linux in any way.
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moreentropy大约 11 年前
I can&#x27;t access that site because it returns 500 right now, but: Can we please get over it?<p>Quoting the &quot;Unix philosophy&quot; as the reason to keep things like they were 20 years ago is laughable. I want to get things done, and managing processes using init scripts and daemonization is pain. <i>Edit: I&#x27;v read the cached version now, and this assumption turned out wrong. The authors see a need to replace sysvinit.</i><p>The amount of bad and inconsistent init scripts, messy PID file handling, makeshift service wrappers, defective daemonization and logging workarounds is so much worse than having one place that will handle those ever repeated tasks.<p>I love that in recent years Linux (as in distributions) got an attitude and actively push things forward, without losing compatiblity to older software. Apple introduced launchd and nobody complained. We start to rely docker and all sorts of new approaches to manage our services and nobody complains. But init is somehow regarded as the holy cow noone is supposed to touch although everybody agrees it sucks.<p>Even if it&#x27;s technically wrong: Unix as a platform is now Linux. Everything else is niche products, and we don&#x27;t have to use the same init mechanism on Linux&#x2F;BSD&#x2F;whatever just because we can.<p>I have deployed the same software on Debian Linux, RHEL Linux and AIX and basically had to reimplement service management scripts for every platform to have the best possible result. How could this get even worse?
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mrweasel大约 11 年前
We just install daemontools on all of our servers for our own stuff and let the system packages use whatevers the default in the distro, they seem to live happily together.<p>I suspect that one issue with systemd is that it aims to solve very real problem, but they are problems that not many noticed. Most of the stuff that&#x27;s highlighted as benefits of systemd are things I never experienced, either I don&#x27;t thing advanced enough or the issue has already been addressed by the distro.<p>Most of us are just going have some daemon&#x2F;process that we want to start at boot and for that purpose systemd is going to look like massive overkill and overly complicated. That might be mostly a documentation issue, systemd could benefit for a &quot;So you want to start at process&quot; guide.
klaasvakie大约 11 年前
Does anyone know if this quote is true?:<p>&quot;Since systemd is very tightly welded with the Linux kernel API, this also makes different systemd versions incompatible with different kernel versions.&quot;<p>I was pretty meh about the whole systemd thing, but having to change userspace when swopping out kernels is a spectacular disadvantage. Imagine having to downgrade your distro whenever you need to test against older kernels --- madness.<p>This is especially bad with ARM&#x2F;embedded stuff where one often runs a modern userspace with an older kernel.
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foxylad大约 11 年前
Given that both systemd and upstart exist, it would seem that it is time for a next generation init. And given that Ubuntu has now accepted systemd, it has critical mass and should be the new standard.<p>&quot;Doing one thing and doing it well&quot; is a fine guide for system tools, but does not apply to everything - look at the kernel, or Gnome for instance.
nifoc大约 11 年前
&gt; Consider migrating to BSD, Plan 9 or something similar, if things get really out of hand.<p>I can understand suggesting to migrate to BSD, but Plan 9? Seriously?<p>And what&#x27;s the purpose of the &quot;Open Source Tea Party&quot; picture? This surely is not the only picture of Lennart in existence.
voidz大约 11 年前
I fell in love with FreeBSD&#x27;s init style, which is what I switched to when the move Archlinux made broke my systems. Due to virtualisation demands I had to switch back to Linux, and chose Funtoo (a Gentoo fork) with the OpenRC init system.<p>I&#x27;ve never been happier.
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blueben大约 11 年前
&lt;meta name=&quot;author&quot; content=&quot;VR and DnE&quot;&gt;<p>Seems the authors forgot to give themselves the credit they deserve.<p><a href="https://forums.darknedgy.net/profile.php?id=589" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;forums.darknedgy.net&#x2F;profile.php?id=589</a> <a href="https://forums.darknedgy.net/profile.php?id=373" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;forums.darknedgy.net&#x2F;profile.php?id=373</a> <a href="http://billyest.es/About_Me" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;billyest.es&#x2F;About_Me</a>
oldmantaiter大约 11 年前
Considering the adoption and improvements, I&#x27;m on board with the &quot;standardization&quot; of distros with systemd.<p>Can&#x27;t stand upstart and it&#x27;s &quot;Oh you wanted to restart your daemon, but I won&#x27;t run the pre-start&#x2F;post-start&#x2F;post-stop actions you&#x27;ve configured me to&quot;, but that&#x27;s just me.
mordae大约 11 年前
&gt; Contribute to and <i>use distros like Slackware</i> and CRUX that follow traditional Unix paradigms.<p>Made my day. Emphasis mine.
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ef47d35620c1大约 11 年前
I don&#x27;t know much about systemd, so I can&#x27;t say either way.<p>So long as I can still get syslog style plain text logs, then I have no objections. Unix and text log parsing is unparalleled. If simple text log parsing and manipulation is removed (all binary with only xml or json), then I&#x27;d be very opposed to systemd.
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lasermike026大约 11 年前
I hate systemd. I will avoid it when every possible. It is an abomination. I hate upstart even more.
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lmedinas大约 11 年前
Systemd got a huge boost due the involved from Red Hat. But then most of the distros are adopting it, even Debian and Ubuntu. I don&#x27;t see a reason but still if you want to stay out of systemd better use Gentoo or other &quot;non&quot; major distro.
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duncan_bayne大约 11 年前
I recently installed and investigated PC-BSD for this very reason; a friend who&#x27;s a BSD user commented that systemd has been driving BSD adoption very hard recently. I intend switching to PC-BSD for personal and work use within the year.
silon3大约 11 年前
Does the old &quot;good standard will have 2 or more implementations&quot; apply here?
lvillani大约 11 年前
Cached: <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zylqvGo21_oJ:boycottsystemd.org/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;webcache.googleusercontent.com&#x2F;search?q=cache:zylqvGo...</a><p>(the site is unreachable at the moment).
midas007大约 11 年前
Until there&#x27;s a viable alternative, it looks like whining.
ausjke大约 11 年前
I hate to be personal, the guy leads systemd is indeed a genius, but genius could be more destructive, his way to do things for linux&#x2F;unix is too intrusive for whatever he has done so far.<p>it&#x27;s always good to try a disruptive way on the side before it matures and gets accepted gradually, however with the direct support from Redhat(where he is an employee) this systemd thing carries much more power than a typical open source project, sigh.<p>I would rather stay with sysvinit instead of something like this.<p>I think he should be employed at Microsoft to help them revamp their OS or whatever, make it or break it there, but please stay out of OSS.
legulere大约 11 年前
They single out Lennart Poettering but don&#x27;t have the guts to write their own names under their arguments. You can&#x27;t take this serious.
bitwize大约 11 年前
The &quot;debate&quot; about systemd is like the &quot;debate&quot; about global warming: all the people with any knowledge of the issue fall on one side, and the opposition consists largely of the ignorant and butthurt.<p>Systemd has won by being vastly superior to any alternatives. I suppose it&#x27;s all right to use something else but the community has embraced systemd as the correct solution, and you lose community support and assume all the risk of breakage if you do not stick with systemd.
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peterwwillis大约 11 年前
tl;dr systemd crashes systems, is incompatible with other distros and OSes, adds admin difficulty, breaks applications, and introduces security holes<p>---<p>systemd was created in order to improve the speed of booting up your system. I&#x27;m serious. It was created because waiting a minute to boot up your machine once was too long.<p>In order to accomplish those faster boot times, they ripped out the stock init system model, and created a monolithic, non-portable, non-backwards-compatible, kernel-version-specific, Noah&#x27;s Ark of API calls and custom tools which use binary formats and incompatible IPC methods to start programs that were never designed to run that way. They made obsolete virtually every aspect of the operating system which used to work with existing applications to start and maintain the running of userland programs. For faster boot times.<p>Of course, most of you don&#x27;t care because you don&#x27;t have to maintain your system, as long as it just works. What does this mean for people who <i>do</i> work with the system?<p>First off, building tools that work with the system are now more complex. It used to be you could use any i&#x2F;o or ipc method to do anything you wanted. Now you have to look up and call and API call - and if the API call you want isn&#x27;t in systemd&#x27;s tool, or it doesn&#x27;t expose it in a way you can use in your program, tough. Better become a C programmer fast.<p>Second, better be careful how you update your system. Every version of systemd, and any software it depends on, could crash your entire machine if a bug is introduced. I weep for the poor sysadmins who push out an update to thousands of machines only to find a strange bug which takes them all down, all because systemd decided having an enormous codebase was worth booting 20 seconds faster.<p>I hope you&#x27;ve got money for a security audit. systemd has had nine security vulnerabilities in the past four years. For comparison, sysvinit has had one CVE - in 1999. I haven&#x27;t found any CVEs or security bulletins for upstart, which sounds amazing to me.<p>When it comes time to porting your application to Linux, you don&#x27;t get to just write it in a way that would normally work on most Unix-like systems (which would, at this point, be virtually every operating system that isn&#x27;t Windows or Mac OS, and now Linux). Now you have a new porting target specifically just to get your application to <i>run</i>, and then you get to deal with the normal porting issues.<p>At the end of the day, systemd is a culmination of two ideas, with one result. One idea is that a &quot;superior design&quot; with &quot;advanced features&quot; is the only benchmark in which we should design and run a system. The other idea is that we don&#x27;t need to keep compatibility with legacy systems or alternative platforms, because fuck users, admins, developers, security analysts, distro maintainers and portability teams, we want faster boot times , damnit. And it&#x27;s Advanced! The result? A big fucking mess of complexity that breaks everything that came before, introduces security holes, makes it more difficult to modify or maintain your system, and breaks compatibility with other systems (even Linux ones).<p>But aside from all that, systemd is great.
adimania大约 11 年前
It is Linux. Let systemd live and if you don&#x27;t like it, switch to upstart. No one is stopping you.
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wooptoo大约 11 年前
&gt; an abhorrent and violent slap in the face to the Unix philosophy<p>I&#x27;m tired of all this UNIX philosophy crap. I have been using Systemd for more than a year now, on Archlinux, and it has been a delightful experience.<p>It works out of the box and it gets a lot of things right. Journald is quick &amp; easy to use and a real help in finding problems. No more searching around in log files and grepping. Dependencies between services are handled by the init. Services start with maximum parallelism. Writing .service files is really easy.<p>It simply has better UX than any other init system, and it&#x27;s supported by a lot of distros. This means standardization and progress. No more developer time wasted on sysvinit scripts.<p>The posted link is the same FUD that I have been reading for the last year on various forums. Even if systemd can be a single point of failure, it&#x27;s still way more stable than anything we have used before.
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dschiptsov大约 11 年前
There must be already a name for this particular fallacy, when a bunch of people considered themselves &quot;knowing the [only] right direction&quot; and especially &quot;destroying and discarding everything to build it up from scratch as they know will be the best for all&quot;. A-la those uneducated, ignorant, but cook-sure and self-confident lower-class revolutionaries in Russia hundred years ago who were unable to grasp that &quot;evolved [social] system&quot; has some subtle &quot;laws , forces and reasons&quot; behind it and that uncomprehensive, even unreadable philosophy or a naive, oversimplified model [of economics] is much worse than no philosophy or model whatsoever. Self-regulated (and especially evolved) complex systems are &quot;smarter&quot; than any bunch of individuals ,)
SnakeDoc大约 11 年前
Just pointing out it&#x27;s not that difficult to &quot;roll your own&quot; linux distro. It&#x27;ll take you an afternoon if you haven&#x27;t done it before... and you can very well choose to keep using sysvinit if you want (my personal distro will use sysvinit probably until the end of the year when I have time to figure out how to integrate systemd).
lucian1900大约 11 年前
This is why we can&#x27;t have nice things.
SnakeDoc大约 11 年前
I think the website is missing the legal disclaimer &quot;Paid for by Canonical (because we&#x27;re bitter)&quot;.
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SnakeDoc大约 11 年前
The Canonical fanboys are just upset they lost out on their inferior technology and now are trying to do everything possible to stall it. systemd is unquestionably a big step forward, Upstart is only a step to the side. There is a reason the serious linux distros (no, Ubuntu is not serious, it&#x27;s a toy for newbies to use on their desktop) have all chosen systemd. There is also a reason some of them tried Upstart and decided it was not good.
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Grue3大约 11 年前
I&#x27;m getting code 500 error, but I&#x27;m guessing a Republican has been discovered to be somehow related to systemd.
evbogue大约 11 年前
If this person had been running systemd, this website would still be up.