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Bitcoin Price Pressure

110 点作者 arnauddri大约 11 年前

26 条评论

diogenescynic大约 11 年前
Warren Buffet said this about gold, but it&#x27;s still relevant to Bitcoin:<p>&gt;“If you put your money into gold or other non-income- producing assets [read: Bitcoin] that are dependent on what someone else values that in the future, you’re in speculation,” he said. “You’re not into investing....”<p>&gt;To illustrate the point, he asked readers to picture the world’s entire gold stock melded together into a cube 68 feet (21 meters) on each side valued at $9.6 trillion at then- prevailing prices. For the same amount, an investor could have purchased all the farmland in the U.S., 16 replicas of Exxon Mobil Corp., and still have about $1 trillion of “walking- around money.”<p>&gt;A century later, the farmland will be producing valuable crops no matter the currency, and dividends from the companies would probably added up to trillions of dollars, Buffett wrote.<p>&gt;The 170,000 metric tons of gold “will be unchanged in size and still incapable of producing anything,” he wrote. “You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond.”
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panarky大约 11 年前
It&#x27;s not worth much to speculate about upward or downward price pressure. People made the same arguments when the exchange rate was $5, $25, $50 on up to $1,150, and now back down to $440&#x2F;BTC.<p>These arguments have zero predictive value.<p>What&#x27;s interesting to me is the repeating boom-bust pattern that we see as more people learn about cryptocurrencies, and as the Bitcoin protocol holds its own against an onslaught of attacks.<p>In the summer of 2010, the exchange rate was $0.05&#x2F;BTC. Over the next year the price increased by 60000%, then proceeded to decline 90%. Even after losing 90% of its value, it was still up 4500% from the summer of 2010.<p>By the spring of 2013, the exchange rate spiked to $250&#x2F;BTC, up 10000% ... then crashed and lost 80% of its value. Its post-peak minimum was still twice as high as the previous peak.<p>Again in late 2013, the price zoomed up nearly 3000% ... and it&#x27;s now lost 60% of its peak value, still twice as high as the previous peak.<p>The past doesn&#x27;t necessarily predict the future, but we&#x27;re not seeing anything today that we haven&#x27;t experienced at least three times already.
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IvyMike大约 11 年前
&gt; Anecdotally, I hear from merchants who start taking bitcoin that after an initial spike they see almost no volume.<p>To me, this is one of the biggest problems with adoption--bitcoin doesn&#x27;t offer much benefit to the typical consumer for mundane transactions.<p>I&#x27;m about to buy a coffee machine on Overstock.com. There&#x27;s no practical reason that bitcoins are better than what I&#x27;m going to do which is put it on my mastercard. And there&#x27;s a lot of reasons that getting my money into bitcoin in the first place is a giant pain in the ass.<p>Yeah, there are some potential situations that could change this, and if I lived in a country with massive inflation I might feel differently, but as it stands, I don&#x27;t see any compelling reason to use bitcoin to make purchases.
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Aqueous大约 11 年前
We&#x27;re talking about something that was worth less than $200 a a year ago, and $0 5 years ago. So if you believe that BitCoin is following an uneven adoption cycle, where there is a boom period followed by a pullback, which is what has been the case so far, then we&#x27;re still at the beginning of its adoption curve. Additionally when mainstream markets for trading BitCoin open up - like Second Market&#x27;s planned BitCoin exchange - you&#x27;ll see a lot more money flow into BitCoin speculation from actual investment institutions, which could cause buy pressure.<p>I think probably the most important - and maybe only - indicator of whether BitCoin can actually sustain its price is how many merchants are accepting it as a payment option. If this is still going up (as I believe it is) then BitCoin has a promising future. If it starts declining then I start to worry.
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VMG大约 11 年前
&gt; And even if bitcoin itself fails, I think the blockchain will be one of key technical innovations of this time period.<p>A blockchain is only useful if it is heavily secured by hashing power. This is only the case if there is significant mining equipment devoted to validating blocks. That in turn only happens if there is a reward for validating a block.<p>Long story short, it&#x27;s currently very difficult to use a secure blockchain that is not based on Bitcoin, which puts the quote into perspective. Those who want to use blockchain technology have an incentive to use the Bitcoin blockchain because it has the greatest security.
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vijayboyapati大约 11 年前
Sam writes: &quot;It just means that for it to succeed, we’ll need significant external buy pressure. As I wrote awhile ago, I think the key thing we need for this is people actually using bitcoin for transactions instead of speculation (and merchants willing to hold bitcoin balances). &quot;<p>I think this is a very common meme about what success means for bitcoin and it&#x27;s tied up with a misunderstanding of what money is; most people think money is valuable because it&#x27;s used transactionally. Rather, money is valuable because it has reservation demand. An increasing level of transactional usage might increase reservation demand but it doesn&#x27;t need to. On the other hand increasing reservation demand can occur even without any new transactional demand. Moldbug explained this best in his discussions on bitcoin and how money is a bubble phenomenon:<p><a href="http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/04/bitcoin-is-money-bitcoin-is-bubble.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;04&#x2F;bitcoin...</a><p><a href="http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2011/04/on-monetary-restandardization.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com&#x2F;2011&#x2F;04&#x2F;on-mone...</a><p>Bitcoin can be &quot;successful&quot; even if it&#x27;s not the preferred medium of exchange for most, or even many transactions. It can act as a store of value just as gold does. Except it is superior to gold is almost every way - more fungible, more verifiable, more divisible, easier to transport (especially across borders) and easier to transmit. A success case for bitcoin is that it becomes Gold 2.0. Gold&#x27;s market cap is approximately 7 trillion. Bitcoin&#x27;s market cap is approximately 6 billion. If Bitcoin were to replace gold as an alternatively medium of savings (say, in 50 years), its price could be hundreds or thousands of times higher than it is now without needed much, if any, increase in transactional use. Gold has almost no transactional use but it has a great deal of reservation demand.
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anigbrowl大约 11 年前
<i>It’s important to understand that the default price pressure of the bitcoin ecosystem is down.</i><p>Only if you assume demand is static. With a mathematically-fixed supply, expanding global population, and the supposed inherently inflationary nature of fiat currencies, the default price pressure should arguably be upward. Let&#x27;s face it, a great number of the early adopters are digital goldbugs with a jaundiced view of central banking. Like many quasi-political demographics, I think they overestimated the popularity of their viewpoint.<p>I do agree about the significance of the blockchain as a technical innovation...up to a point. Last time I looked at the dogecoin blockchain it was some multi-gigabyte monsters that I need to move off my boot drive sooner rather than later.
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pcmonk大约 11 年前
Using bitcoin for transactions won&#x27;t help if the merchants immediately sell them (all the buying pressure just got cancelled out). Right now, bitcoin is only held in large quantities for speculation. Speculation, as he notes, has only worked for temporary bubbles.<p>He says that bitcoin isn&#x27;t failing, but I don&#x27;t see how it can succeed. It doesn&#x27;t make short-term economic sense for individuals to either mine or buy bitcoins, so it seems like the only people buying bitcoin will be those who are either speculating or who simply want it to succeed. That doesn&#x27;t seem sustainable. Can anyone explain why he is still optimistic about bitcoin?
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pdq大约 11 年前
<p><pre><code> When most merchants take bitcoin for a purchase, they immediately sell for dollars. </code></pre> This is ignoring the other side of the equation. For someone to spend bitcoins, they had to have bought them for cash.<p>Bitcoin has declined lately because of 3 main reasons:<p>1. There was a massive 10x price increase in the past year or so. (You could call this a bubble.) Now a 50% drop from the high just means a 5x increase in the past year.<p>2. Much of this growth was due to China speculation, and with the Chinese government cracking down on bitcoin ownership and exchanges, this pops much of the speculation.<p>3. Mt. Gox going insolvent.
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sillysaurus3大约 11 年前
In a moment of some depression, reflecting back on sinking so much money into Bitcoin at close to the peak of its price history, I made this: <a href="http://i.imgur.com/f3tIJwK.png" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;f3tIJwK.png</a><p>It&#x27;s important to understand that Bitcoin is dangerous to you, and you need to respect its danger if you decide to buy some. You need to be using a secure cold storage wallet. You need to <i>not</i> trust services like Coinbase to hold onto your coins for you.<p>Growing up, I&#x27;d always heard stories about people who kept cash under their mattress because they didn&#x27;t trust banks to not lose their money, which made me laugh. Now I get to laugh at myself for trusting anyone but myself to not lose my money.<p>Usually, when you lose money, you get something in return. Even if it&#x27;s just an opportunity. A risky investment isn&#x27;t necessarily a bad thing if it fails, because you may have stood to earn a lot if it turned out well.<p>The key thing to understand about Bitcoin is that you can lose <i>all</i> your money in the blink of an eye for a multitude of reasons. I&#x27;ve written in detail about why Bitcoin is dangerous to its users: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7521906" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7521906</a><p>Until there are good and convenient solutions to these problems, it&#x27;s hard to imagine Bitcoin as anything but a vehicle for speculation. And it&#x27;s a fine one, too. If you feel like gambling, there&#x27;s nothing like the rush of seeing whether you&#x27;re about to gain $50 or lose $250 in the next two minutes. And waking up at 3AM to check the price. (Most of the heavy moving seems to happen in the US off-hours, unless a big news story impacts the price.)<p>The reason I say it&#x27;s a vehicle for speculation <i>right now</i> is because right now the most sensible course of action for people who are risk-averse yet still want to accept Bitcoin is to immediately convert Bitcoins into dollars. Indeed, that&#x27;s exactly what Tarsnap does, and probably many other merchants as well.<p>And about the price: it seems mostly determined by a small group of people (probably fewer than 100) who have a lot of coin and who actively try to move the market in their favor. They&#x27;ve been following a rather simple scheme: dump a lot of money into bitcoin to jump the price up $50 or so, then sit back while everyone else reacts by jumping it up another $50, then sell off your newly-acquired bitcoin. Presto, you&#x27;ve earned some money. Possibly quite a lot of money. I don&#x27;t know whether that strategy has paid off for the movers, but nonetheless it seems to be what they&#x27;re doing.<p>The long-term price is anyone&#x27;s guess. I&#x27;d say the most valuable insight I learned throughout this whole ordeal is that the market isn&#x27;t logical, or if it is, <i>you</i> aren&#x27;t going to be privy to the information it&#x27;s acting on. The most obvious example of this was when people sold off thousands of bitcoins an hour or two before Mt. Gox published their update with bad news. At face value, it seemed to be a clear example of insider trading. When it happened, no one knew why the market suddenly dropped so much; it was as if the market suddenly went insane and lost faith in bitcoin. In reality, it was probably someone with a ton of coins who caught wind that hard times were about to happen.<p>Bitcoin is an interesting experiment. I like it a lot. I think it has a lot of potential, and that we need to figure out solutions to the fundamental problems like making it easy for people to manage their own wallets without risk of loss or robbery.
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logician76大约 11 年前
Mt.Gox is going to liquidate all their bitcoins for the bankruptcy proceedings. So factor that in, and creditors of Mt.Gox (especially bitcoin creditors) will get even less than the value today. I&#x27;d say get ready for a big bubble burst.
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dnautics大约 11 年前
&quot;This spurs occasional bubbles...&quot;<p>Actually, no. Bubbles have very clear and consistent price patterns which (so far) has not characterized any of the elevations in bitcoin price. One not mentioned in this chart is that for bubbles, the post-mania drop tends to be 2x faster than the rise, which has never been true for any of the bitcoin corrections.<p><a href="http://www.theeestory.com/files/price_bubble_chart.jpg" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theeestory.com&#x2F;files&#x2F;price_bubble_chart.jpg</a><p>It is certainly possible that bitcoin will at some point exhibit the characteristics of a bubble, which may even destroy bitcoin, but it <i>has not so far</i>.
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jonny_eh大约 11 年前
Sounds like he&#x27;s moving the goal post. When did the conversation change from &quot;Bitcoin is going to change everything!&quot; to &quot;Bitcoin itself doesn&#x27;t matter, it&#x27;s the blockhain idea that does!&quot;
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mrb大约 11 年前
<i>&quot;as far as I can tell, mining is currently unprofitable with any reasonable cost of electricity.&quot;</i><p>I have been mining for 3.5 years. This statement is utterly false. Current mining hardware, such as the KnC Jupiter, can mine at about 500 Ghash&#x2F;s at less than 600 Watt at the wall. Over a month it mines:<p>500e9 (hash&#x2F;sec) * 3600 (sec&#x2F;hour) * 731 (hour&#x2F;month) &#x2F; (2^32 * 8.0e9 (current difficulty)) * 25 (btc&#x2F;block) * 400 ($&#x2F;btc) = $383<p>And assuming worldwide average electricity costs of $0.10&#x2F;kWh, it costs less than $44 to run over a month:<p>.6 (kW) * 731 (hour&#x2F;month) * .10 ($&#x2F;kWh) = $44<p>Even assuming higher prices (eg. highest-tier electricity prices in SoCal of ~$0.30&#x2F;kWh), and even adding overhead like cooling, etc, it is still clearly profitable to mine with the Jupiter.<p>(However difficulty is rising pretty quickly, so it will certainly not remain that profitable, if at all, in the near future.)
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applecore大约 11 年前
There&#x27;s no such thing as &quot;default price pressure&quot; (up or down) in financial markets.<p>Every trade has both a buyer and a seller—for someone to have sold bitcoins, someone else has to have bought them.
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robot大约 11 年前
&quot;It still makes sense to mine if you’re living in a dorm and don’t pay for electricity&quot; it will be nitpicking on a whole post, but I don&#x27;t find it ethical to make such gains. The fact that you don&#x27;t legally need to pay does not entitle you to use resources of someone else this way (in this case the educational institution). I guess he meant &quot;it theoretically makes sense if you don&#x27;t pay for electricity&quot;
baby大约 11 年前
&gt; This will continue to be the case until the US government takes bitcoin for taxes.<p>I like how this is only about the US and the world around doesn&#x27;t exist.
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mhluongo大约 11 年前
In my (admittedly short) experience accepting bitcoin, our customers keep coming back. It&#x27;s not much data, but we&#x27;ve had 25% retention these 3 weeks.<p>I think being able to spend bitcoin places people actually visit every day is going to be huge for adoption &#x2F; stability. How often do I spend at Overstock.com? Now what about the corner coffee shop, or the grocery store?
tethis大约 11 年前
But if the currency is deflationary with a coin limit, over the long term the only way more people can enter the market &#x2F; make use the currency is for, as an example, $1 USD to be represented by smaller and smaller subdivisions of BTC. This necessarily increases the value of 1 BTC.<p>Why is there ever any incentive to do anything with BTC besides hoarding?
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thisiswrong大约 11 年前
Yes. We hear this each time. All that i can respond to this is: log chart, log chart, log chart [1]! By looking at a simple log chart one can notice a repetitive cycle. One may even notice that now is actually the best time to buy. Following the pattern, the next boom is only 2-6 weeks away. Who knows what could cause the next boom? Russia pump, Ukraine banking shutdown, E.C.B. Quantitative Easing, USD weakening ? ...<p>[1] <a href="https://blockchain.info/charts/market-cap?timespan=2year&amp;showDataPoints=false&amp;daysAverageString=1&amp;show_header=true&amp;scale=1&amp;address=" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blockchain.info&#x2F;charts&#x2F;market-cap?timespan=2year&amp;sho...</a>
joelhaus大约 11 年前
Can anyone make the case that Bitcoin has the three primary characteristics of money [1]: medium of exchange, unit of account, and store of value?<p>Ignoring the blockchain, this is why Bitcoin will fail. Bitcoin as a currency is inherently inflationary because as demand increases (which is the state of a healthy currency), the supply is relatively stationary. Therefore, a drop in Bitcoin value is indicative of a disproportionate drop in demand.<p>[1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money#Functions" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Money#Functions</a>
logicallee大约 11 年前
&gt;This doesn’t mean bitcoin is doomed. It just means that for it to succeed, we’ll need significant external buy pressure. As I wrote awhile ago, I think the key thing we need for this is people actually using bitcoin for transactions instead of speculation (and merchants willing to hold bitcoin balances). [3] Unfortunately, transaction volume still appears to be trending down.<p>Let&#x27;s look at this. Yes, one easy way in which bitcoin can &quot;succeed&quot; is by becoming a worldwide currency in actual use. In fact, this is probably a design objective.<p>However, its extremely limited supply dooms it from the start in this endeavor.<p>We can reason about this by counterexample (<i>reductio ad absurdum</i>). First, let&#x27;s take for a given that within ten years bitcoin will have a role in the world money supply similar to gold (cap of $7.2 trillion on all gold ever mined) or the M2 money supply of USD. (<a href="http://money.howstuffworks.com/how-much-money-is-in-the-world.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;money.howstuffworks.com&#x2F;how-much-money-is-in-the-worl...</a>)<p>This doesn&#x27;t count other currencies and is not &quot;most&quot; of the world money supply.<p>There is a limit on the number of bitcoins that can ever be mined, at 21 million. (More than half have been mined, so let&#x27;s use that upper limit - you may want to multiply by two to account for the current supply instead). If were to divide $7 trillion by 21 million we would get a bit over $330,000 per bitcoin.<p>Since we started with the assumption that bitcoin would become a world currency or money supply, and the bitcoin protocol limits supply to 21 million ever, we are forced to continue our argument with a target price of $330K&#x2F;bitcoin over 10 years.<p>This does, however, pose a problem.<p>We started with the assumption that bitcoin succeeds as a <i>currency</i>.<p>That means people have to get their hands on it and use it.<p>But if we go from today&#x27;s price ($445) to our logically mandated target price ($330K) in ten years, that means the value of bitcoins increases by a factor of 741 (330 000&#x2F;445) over 10 years, i.e. a compound average of 94% per year. (1.94^10 = 741).<p>Do we have a contradiction yet? I think we do.<p>--&gt; Is it possible for the price of bitcoin to rise an average of 94% per year, for ten years, while:<p>--&gt; it is also being adopted as a world currency?<p>I believe the answer is &quot;no&quot;. Let&#x27;s look at some of the behavior that&#x27;s necessary in order for it to count as a &quot;world currency&quot;:<p>1. Borrowing BTC for productive purposes.<p>One of the major reasons, if not <i>the</i> major reason that USD is a currency of business and gold is not, is that you can borrow USD for productive purposes. Indeed, this can happen directly by increasing the money supply centrally in a way that gets to people for loan purposes, but also happens implicitly due to systemic inflation. Inflation mandates that some USD will always be lent. This is because inflation is a hidden taxes on keeping USD <i>qua</i> USD. If you come to possess $1M in cash, you would be insane to keep it as cash for 20 years. Inflation would just eat a large chunk of it. Not so with currencies that do not experience inflation.<p>2. This deflation is toxic to using bitcoins by people who have them.<p>If bitcoins are going to increase in value by 91% if you keep them for a year, then if you possess bitcoins, you would be crazy to spend them on anything that does not produce a 91% return for you within a shorter time period. This is going to seriously hinder spending, and adoption. Certainly, some people may be &quot;forced&quot; to sell some of their bitcoins. But that is not the way in which a currency succeeds. By people preferring not to spend it, but having to do so in some extraordinary cases.<p>3. Fees on exchanges may be higher. If btc has a high price, and is considered an investment, you may be leery of buying some from somebody (which may cost you percentages) to buy goods that are not actually denominated in BTC. The volatility may also put you off.<p>In this sense bitcoin would behave more like Picassos than like USD or any other world currency. People are just going to hang on to it.<p>4. So what if people need money? Wouldn&#x27;t they still just get some BTC at the current spot price?<p>The thing is, if most people are hoarding BTC with very little spending of it, when it can be at all avoided, there will NOT be a price set by deep markets of goods and services. There is no &quot;floor&quot; on the price. That is dangerous for bitcoin. It is still possible to buy and transfer &quot;just in time&quot; to be sold back into fiat by the merchant.<p>But people are not going to print menus, catalogues, ads, or other more than transient pegs to price, just as nobody prints prices in ounces of gold.<p>You will therefore have a case in which there is no built-in usage or acceptance of bitcoins, denomination in bitcoins of goods and services, or large transactions such as investments being built against bitcoin. Since nobody uses bitcoins as an actual currency, there is no floor to its adoption. Essentially actual users of the currency are priced out of it. This is contrary to our initial assumpion!<p>You may say - well, so what if it is hard to get. People will still get it at a spot price, to pay for goods, even if nothing is denominated in BTC.<p>But then we must ask - well, why in BTC then? Why not another alt currency? If only the spot price matters...<p>So any POSSIBLE floor on the price will drop out, since btc does not have a unique position. Will it take on a role that Gold has over thousands of years - that people recognize its value implicitly, even after it has long since not been used as currency, and there is no obvious substitute (like silver and platinum)?<p>Well, here&#x27;s the thing. Gold has several unique properties that most other precious metals don&#x27;t have. It&#x27;s easy to essay, very dense, can be recognized and verified, and has a long history of acceptance all over the world. Bitcoin does not have a long history of acceptance all over the world, the software can break, but, if the software is <i>not</i> broken, if its verifiability is in tact - THEN IT IS NOT UNIQUE IN THIS REGARD!<p>Indeed, anyone can use litecoins, doegecoins, or other currency. As bitcoin becomes too valuable to spend (unless you can get a 91% return), it would simply make sense to use the spot price of another currency to trade with instead.<p>So by the very fact that its properties are not totally unique, it does not have actual usage as a unit of account, it is failing in its bid to become the default online currency.<p>At best, it can end up like gold compared to USD, and fail to be an online currency. At worst, it can tank.<p>So while it is certainly possible for BTC to maintain their value - as a currency it can never reach much use. Moreover there is a large risk that the speculation will cease - i.e. that the hoarding behavior was a &quot;bubble&quot;. Look at the volumes of litecoin and dogecoin versus BTC. This may easily happen.<p>-<p>I believe that an online currency could be created that is more like USD than like Gold.<p>Here is how the USD has been treated since 1913:<p>&quot;The U.S. Congress established three key objectives for monetary policy in the Federal Reserve Act: Maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates&quot;.&quot;<p>Today, bitcoin fails at all three. (It will not create employment from people spending it to whom it is lent; the price of goods denominated in BTC is extremely unstable; and it would have extremely high interest rates.)<p>I believe that there is a way to do far more in a digital currency. But BTC is not it.<p>It simply, logically, cannot succeed as a currency or world money supply. Its behavior as an investment is also completely uncertain - nothing makes it unique versus other alt currencies, not the technology, not acceptance, and its price fights against real adoption.<p>This sets up a dangerous tulip-like situation. I personally would not invest in BTC holdings, nor do I think it is a good candidate for Internet money.
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Ologn大约 11 年前
&gt; The other way to get enough buy pressure would be if many people started deciding they want to hold bitcoin as a hedge or a speculation. This spurs occasional bubbles, but we haven’t yet seen it work long term.<p>Bitcoin is doomed because it has no value.<p>Commodities have value. Modern trade began by people trading commodities for each other. Some commodities had attributes which made them good currencies - they were portable, fungible, divisible etc. Gold is an example of a commodity which makes a good currency, other precious metals like silver are good as well.<p>Bitcoins are worthless. They are hashes, that&#x27;s it. Gold can be used to fill teeth, to conduct electricity and so forth. Bitcoins can do nothing.<p>It&#x27;s funny to see his discussion of bubbles. If anything is a sign of a tech bubble, it&#x27;s these worthless Bitcoins having a market cap of $5+ billion.<p>For people who are saying its value is that it is a currency, you have no understanding of the value of commodities and currencies. Bitcoin&#x27;s inevitable collapse will be a sign of this. My argument is falsifiable - if Bitcoins retain value, I&#x27;m wrong (of course Keynes said markets seemed to remain irrational longer than he himself could remain solvent). The Bitcoin&#x27;s advocates are making an argument that is not falsifiable. &quot;It&#x27;s worth something because it&#x27;s worth something&quot; or &quot;it&#x27;s worth something because people think it&#x27;s worth something&quot;. So if it goes to zero, their theories for why it had value still hold. Scientific arguments are falsifiable (mine is), there&#x27;s are not.<p>Also the rise of Dogecoin, Litecoin, Peercoin or whatnot point to the lack of value of Bitcoins. Anyone can create these valueless currencies - even joke ones like Dogecoin reach market caps in the tens of millions.<p>The only semi-rational argument for Bitcoin is the one that goes &quot;1971 paper currencies like the dollar, yen etc. have not been backed by gold (or some other commodity) since 1971, so why can&#x27;t Bitcoins have value&quot;? That argument is a rather long thing to go into.<p>Also, not to make a big thing of it, but that posts like this questioning the value of Bitcoin are regularly downvoted on HN are instructive. I guess I&#x27;ll have to live with losing some worthless HN karma to point out that Bitcoin hashes are ultimately even more worthless.
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mangeletti大约 11 年前
tl;dr<p>BitCoin is taking a breather on its upward speculative bubble phase, and is being used primarily as a transactional currency at the time, while downward pressures remain the same as they were before the bubble days started.
MarkPNeyer大约 11 年前
&gt; The other way to get enough buy pressure would be if many people started deciding they want to hold bitcoin as a hedge or a speculation.<p>ding ding ding. that&#x27;s all i&#x27;m doing. i&#x27;ve had a bunch for a while. i don&#x27;t need the liquidity, so i figure i might as well hang on to them. i think a lot of us are in the same boat.<p>if a group of 100,000 &#x27;crazy&#x27; and &#x27;irrational&#x27; people all decided to put $100 USD a month into bitcoin, you&#x27;d create upward pressure on BTC, with a price floor of $43 usd [1] at current reward rates, rising as the reward rate drops. The rising floor would case the price of BTC to rise, even if the _only_ volume was &#x27;crazy bitcoin believers putting $100 a month into it&#x27;. the fixed supply of coins and large supply of &#x27;crazy people who think they&#x27;ll make money because the price keeps going up&#x27; and make the &#x27;crazy&#x27; belief that bitcoin will be worth more in the future become a self-fullfilling prophecy.<p>the REAL thing that would cause it to flop is if these &#x27;crazy&#x27; people all decided they wanted dollars instead of bitcoins. that would tank the price. but if they &#x27;maintain the insanity&#x27; of holding onto a thing with a dollar price that flucauates wildly, their insanity becomes our reality. since most of these people think the dollar is a fucked up currency, they probably see the _dollar_ as being the thing that fluctuates wildly. anything looks crooked if you use a crazy straw as a ruler.<p>possible objections:<p>Q: how is this worth anything if it&#x27;s just crazy people convinced that this thing will be worth something&#x27;<p>A: &#x27;it&#x27;s because there is value in trust.&#x27; people that hold onto something they can&#x27;t eat, live in or use because they think it&#x27;s valuable will be right - IF they have their eating, living and other needs taken care of. that&#x27;s it. that&#x27;s all you need to understand. if you think a group of people who 1) have their basic needs met and 2) choose to hold onto something that could let them buy big houses, cars, fame, parties, drugs, sex, and elections because they think this other thing is&#x27; worth more, i&#x27;d suggest you&#x27;re wrong to call them crazy.<p>Q: there aren&#x27;t 100,000 people in the world stupid enough to do this.<p>A: in 2011 there were over 100k bitcoin addresses holding a balance [2]. i don&#x27;t have stats on how many of them still do, but i&#x27;d suggest that these people would be &#x27;stupid enough&#x27; to qualify.<p>Q: those stupid people would all have to have $100 bucks extra a month, and not cash out any BTCs&#x27;<p>A: $100 a month isn&#x27;t that much, and if the &#x27;stupid people&#x27; haven&#x27;t cashed out at BTC being 100 or 1000 times what they paid for it, my guess is they don&#x27;t really need the money.<p>Q: if all they&#x27;re doing is buying it, and they never sell, that makes no sense - why are they buying something they don&#x27;t plan to use?<p>A: because it makes them feel safe. all money is - all the financial markets and stock markets - all they are is a measure of how much people trust the world and think things will be ok. the use of numbers is also becuase people find that comfortable. a subjective measure of well being would never be taken seriously by the world as a &#x27;measure of value&#x27; and yet that&#x27;s essentially what the market is - only it&#x27;s weighted by people who have lots of money. having lots of money is hard to do, so we put more stock in the sense of those people. combine that with &quot;it&#x27;s hard to have lots of money if your sense of well being is shit and you try to fix that by buying things&quot; and it starts to make sense.<p>one guy with an outlandish prediction is crazy. a hundred thousand people with the exact same outlandish prediction are either a cult - believing in something impossible - or a corporation - believing in something unlikely but doable with enough effort. a computer on every desk? impossible, unless you have enough people trusting that this will happen because they&#x27;ve seen the numbers and the math checks out.<p>[1] current reward rate is ~ 7200 coins per day. if 100,000 people put 100&#x2F;month into the coins, that gets you a price of 46.29 per newly created coin.<p>[2] <a href="http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2828/how-many-bitcoin-addresses-are-have-been-carrying-a-balance" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoin.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;2828&#x2F;how-many-bit...</a>
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vbuterin大约 11 年前
The Bitcoin price is falling because the Google Trends search volume is going down. That&#x27;s it. All of the technical analysis and China news is just a mirage that makes a few jolts in the short term.<p><a href="http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bitcoin&amp;date=today%203-m&amp;cmpt=q" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;trends&#x2F;explore#q=bitcoin&amp;date=today%20...</a><p>And it will keep going down until the search volume stops going down, at which point it will stabilize, and then start to go up once again. Of course, this says nothing about whether the recovery will be $7 to $30 or $450 to $4000, but it&#x27;s a pattern that has been quite consistently highly correlated with Bitcoin price movements in the past and I see no reason why it should not continue to be in the future.<p>Edit: the turnaround may be quite soon. We can already see that the price has actually moved by pretty much exactly 0% in total over the past 30 days: <a href="http://bitcoinity.org/markets/bitstamp/usd" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;bitcoinity.org&#x2F;markets&#x2F;bitstamp&#x2F;usd</a>
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