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The Most Shocking Result in World Cup History

133 点作者 houseofshards将近 11 年前

19 条评论

jarvuschris将近 11 年前
This isn&#x27;t just about having trouble with &quot;edge cases&quot;, it&#x27;s a fallacy to even think statistics are useful for predicting outcomes from such a small group where individuals have so much freedom to determine the outcome.<p>Statistics may generate interesting facts after an event but for populations of people as small as two soccer teams there&#x27;s no way they can predict individuals&#x27; actions. Maybe it works better for baseball because each individual has a sufficiently narrow range of potential impacts, but in soccer each person can do relatively whatever they want at any time.
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lostlogin将近 11 年前
For those like me who don&#x27;t know what the saying means. &gt; Eating crow is an American colloquial idiom, meaning humiliation by admitting wrongness or having been proved wrong after taking a strong position.&lt;<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_crow" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eating_crow</a>
elktea将近 11 年前
This the same person who suggested Dani Alves would be an ideal replacement for the suspended Thiago Silva based on their &#x27;defensive&#x27; statistics. While he might be a great statistician, unfortunately it&#x27;s obvious he doesn&#x27;t have enough knowledge of the sport to contribute any meaningful analysis.
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mehulmandania将近 11 年前
Neymar is Brazil&#x27;s talisman. A majority of their goals in this world cup, and quite a large percentage of their goals since he made his debut have come through his direct influence. Ignoring this was the biggest mistake in 538&#x27;s prediction. Maybe football predictions needs a mix of stats and social psychology!<p>Thiago Silva is thought to be the best centre back in the world by most people. And by quite some distance. He provided leadership and organised that back four. Luiz, Marcelo, Maicon and Dante have never exhibited leadership qualities for their clubs.<p>I think that by suggesting Willian and Dante and Alves (even though Alves is ranked highly in the Guardian&#x27;s top 100 list, he plays in the wrong position) would be adequate replacements was the biggest mistake.
plorg将近 11 年前
What would be the justification for removing the discounting term for subsequent goals in the Elo model he mentions?<p>Silver mentions that it was the lopsidedness of the score that made the game so surprising, and that the Elo model discounts increasingly lopsided games. As a consequence, this game would not be the &quot;most surprising&quot; game in the history of the world cup. Thus he removes the discounting term, re-runs the model, and <i>poof</i> this is now the most surprising game in World Cup history.<p>That just smacks of attempting to fit a model to one&#x27;s intuitions. Was it any more &quot;shocking&quot; that Germany won 7-1 than that they were up 5-0 at halftime? I would presume that the &quot;lopsidedness&quot; discount is intended precisely to address the idea that once a team is winning by an overwhelming score the subsequent goals aren&#x27;t really that surprising.<p>Really, though, a measure of &quot;shockingness&quot;, at least as described in this piece, suggests more about what the Elo model cannot capture than it does about the subjective way that any one game was perceived.
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pinars将近 11 年前
Is this data accurate? As a Turkish fan, I don&#x27;t recall nor can find any records of Turkey losing to Switzerland by a 7-0 margin in 1998.<p>Edit: Also sadly, Turkey didn&#x27;t make it to the World Cup in &#x27;98.
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axilmar将近 11 年前
Given the following:<p>1) the psychological pressure put on Brazil&#x27;s players to win the cup in their home turf by their local fans, worldwide fans, media and history of the team.<p>2) the injury of their most valuable offensive player.<p>3) the non-participation of their most valuable defensive player.<p>4) the failure of their coach with other international teams.<p>5) the general attitude of Brazilian football towards &quot;Zogo Bonito&quot;, giving importance to offense and neglecting defense, against the very well organized team like the Germans.<p>it was pretty obvious that the Germans would dominate the game.<p>The shocking part for me was not the score. It was the psychology of the Brazilian defenders. They quickly lost their nerve. These players are supposed to be of world class, having played in top clubs and knowing how to handle pressure. I was wrong, apparently.
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hownottowrite将近 11 年前
From the handicap article:<p>[Among semifinalist teams, only Argentina has maintained ball possession more often than Germany, and nobody makes more short passes per game than the Germans. Germany’s approach is to patiently work the ball into the opponent’s territory, passing it around until its players can create a high-percentage scoring opportunity. Brazil, on the other hand, loves to dribble the ball and create chances by taking on defenders in one-on-one situations.]<p><a href="http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/world-cup-semifinal-crib-notes-brazil-vs-germany/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;fivethirtyeight.com&#x2F;datalab&#x2F;world-cup-semifinal-crib-...</a><p>So here&#x27;s what happens in nearly every sport. A team focused on individual brilliance and passionate &quot;opportunities&quot; gets clobbered by a disciplined opponent who remains patient. Situations like this often turn into a rout.
mladenkovacevic将近 11 年前
Clearly the model does not claim to predict the future or else we&#x27;d all be putting money on the games. I don&#x27;t think a justification or &quot;eating crow&quot; is necessary as the match was obviously an anomaly.
mikegriff将近 11 年前
Reading this article (and lots more around world cup time) written about football by North Americans, I&#x27;ve noticed that there&#x27;s a different way of thing about teams and countries than in Europe (or the English speaking part at least).<p>The biggest one that jumps out at me is using single person to describe the teams. We generally describe a team as &#x27;they&#x27; rather than &#x27;it&#x27;. So we are more likely to see &#x27;Germany’s win will also affect their odds in the World Cup final&#x27; than the way it&#x27;s written in the article.<p>Has anyone else found any other Americanisms?
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blndcat将近 11 年前
If you don&#x27;t understand what you&#x27;re modelling, you won&#x27;t create an accurate model.<p>For programmers, we create an approximation to the real world and then refine the model as we (or the users) come across the imperfections.<p>Unfortunately, Nate probably still doesn&#x27;t know how much he doesn&#x27;t know.<p>&gt; But there was almost certainly some bad luck for Brazil. It had more shots than Germany in the match<p>Comparing number of shots (or possession) is a bad metric if the playing styles are different.
erehweb将近 11 年前
Is statistical analysis useless for soccer? No - Australia was unlikely to win the world cup.<p>Is the 538 model a good enough one? No - when we have two events it thinks are extremely unlikely (this and Netherlands-Spain 5-1), we should suspect that there&#x27;s something going on it&#x27;s not capturing.
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callum85将近 11 年前
Nate Silver stops making adjustments to the model as soon the results fit the headline.
macco将近 11 年前
Actually the prediction is kind a awkward.<p>Germany was the clear favorite, better team, better individual players on most positions (especially in the crucial midfield) and better strategic education.
cheepin将近 11 年前
It seems the actual article points to the contrary: that the prediction model is generally good, but can get unlucky, and has trouble with edge cases.
NicoJuicy将近 11 年前
If i&#x27;m not mistaking, Germany used SAP (the big German ERP company) and bigdata for help in decisions :)
lurcio将近 11 年前
Looked like a thrown match to me tbh<p>Dont think models need fitting to this kind of result
vajorie将近 11 年前
Gotta adore the whitewashing priorities.
anuraj将近 11 年前
Brazil looked like a pack of nincompoops scurrying around without sense. Well deserved win for Germany!