The Data of Hate

90 点作者 _pius将近 11 年前

14 条评论

incision将近 11 年前

The maps alone [1] seems to sum up so much of my experience with prejudice over the years. I grew up in and around and still live near DC which is near/at the bottom of the scale here.First, it wasn't until I found my way onto the Internet regularly and into online games in particular in the second half of the 90s that I witnessed hate for Jews outside of history lessons. Suddenly, mixing in real-time with a not terribly diverse crowd from all the country the very word 'Jew' was an insult and heard regularly.Next, in the early 2000s as my career got underway I ended up working with the people who vendors would fly in from cheaper parts of the country.At the time, the staff in our group was better than half black with middle management comprised of a black man, hispanic man and an orthodox Jew. We had several people come who were particularly about who they were willing to take direction from and at least one who was sent packing mid-project for his very strong opinions on ethnicity.Finally, as we move through tourist season in DC I've already had my summer dose of tourists talking about how 'wasting money educating negros is killing the country' and Obama's birth certificate.I guess I should be very glad to have been born into such a melting pot.1: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/13/sunday-review/white-bigoted-and-young.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/13/sunday-review/...</a>

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tinco将近 11 年前

A shame he didn't go deeper. The analysis here is very superficial, basically consisting of him browsing the forum for a while and doing some number crunching on profile data. A bit disappointing for a NYT article, even if it is just on their website.It would have been much nicer if he did a proper data analysis of forum posts. If we've ruled out social economic class and education, what big factor remains? I suppose it would be friends and family. Perhaps a linguistic analysis could reveal how connected these people are to each other. Perhaps some psychological analysis could reveal something about their personalities other than "a perfectly nice and intelligent young woman".If we could locate the source of these ideas, perhaps there could be a way of battling it. From my experience, people who post on forums are just the tip of the iceberg of the people who share their opinions and beliefs. For every person who voices an opinion there could be hundreds who share it.Perhaps you could use the linguistic analysis to track their beliefs to key influencers.

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bhaumik将近 11 年前

Discussion around this article: <a href="https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1051922/" rel="nofollow">https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1051922/</a>Germany's win today: <a href="https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1052081/" rel="nofollow">https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t1052081/</a>"Yes. I like Argentina also because they're mostly white, and they sheltered the heroes of our race after the Zionist take-over of Europe. But I was for Germany all the way. I loved how they utterly crushed Brazil in their own house. I don't like that they have to have an African on their team and it's obvious he is there because of affirmative action.. I also don't like how the German team had to hug Merkel and her Zionist lackeys but regardless, I'm happy for the German victory especially right in the house of one of the biggest mongrel countries in the world aka Brazil. It is left unsaid, but it almost feels like a big white hand slapping the face of every white-hating zionist and mongrel out there."

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blendergasket将近 11 年前

I find it really interesting that at a micro level on forums like this there is the same goodness and kindness to one another. People doing each other favors, people encouraging one another, etc. I mean, I guess it makes sense. People are essentially the same no matter what weird, dark beliefs they hold, but it just always boggles my mind that, out of some fundamental goodness and bond with their fellow human, someone will go out of their way to help someone else find some article or another on why all Jews should be shot or why Anders Breivik was a hero or whathaveyou.

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QuantumChaos将近 11 年前

Even though they take their views to ridiculous extremes, sites like Stormfront do have a valid critique of the hypocrisy of liberal American Jews.Exactly the same people and groups who claim that White people desiring to live among other White people is stupid and immoral, also believe that Israel being a Jewish nation is non-negotiable. Only the far-left (e.g. Norman Finkelstein and Chomsky in some moments) are consistent in criticizing Jewish identity and White identity in the same terms.The mainstream claim that these two concepts are completely distinct and incomparable, and yet there is no obvious difference. The only way that this discrepancy can be seen as something other than hypocrisy, is if either (1) Jewish identity is entirely defensive, i.e. a reaction to prejudice from the society in which Jews happen to live, or (2) Jewishness is an entirely separate category, incomparable to race or ethnicity (I don't include religion because I don't think that the concept of Jewish identity solely as a religious identity stands up to scrutiny).In response to (1), I don't see this as the full picture as Jewishness is allowed to be celebrated in its own right. The idea that Israel should be Jewish merely for the physical protection of Jews, rather than the protection of Jewish identity, is not consistent with how Israelis or their liberal supporters describe Israel.In response to (2), the only way that Jewishness can be rendered incomparable to Whiteness, is to accept that the most extreme views against Whites are true. Namely that (unlike every other cultural or ethnic identity), Whiteness is an identity of racial supremacism and oppresion. Some people (again, on the far left) truly believe this. But I find it a ridiculous assertion, and most people simply are too brow-beaten to dig this deep in to anti-racist discourse.

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danso将近 11 年前

Love the closing line.That said, I have to be skeptical about this assertion:> The states with the most members per capita are Montana, Alaska and Idaho. These states tend to be overwhelmingly white. Does this mean that growing up with little diversity fosters hate?...Probably not. Since those states have a higher proportion of non-Jewish white people, they have more potential members for a group that attacks Jews and nonwhites. >> The percentage of Stormfront’s target audience that joins is actually higher in areas with more minorities. This is particularly true when you look at Stormfront’s members who are 18 and younger and therefore do not themselves choose where they live....Among this age group, California, a state with one of the largest minority populations, has a membership rate 25 percent higher than the national average.California is a HUGE state. Just because it's diverse overall doesn't mean that there aren't certain pockets that are very non-diverse...and being close to "The Others", while not mingling with them, may even exacerbate the tendency towards bigotry.I don't think people in New York are naturally more tolerant in some genetic sense...if you're someone with a preoccupying hatred of a certain race or group, your biological stress levels will go haywire, as on any given subway ride, you can pretty much expect to be sitting or standing next to someone of that group. Chances are, you just get over it, especially if your workplace and neighborhood are equally diverse. And if you don't get over it, chances are the city life won't be for you.It's often not so much a conscious choice to be tolerant versus intolerant...if something "scares" you at first, but you see it every day, and most days, your interactions are benign or even net positive, your body/mind is going to logically reason, "Meh, these people aren't bad at all".And if you have a certain fear implanted in you, and never get a chance to confront it on an every day basis? What kind of logical process, absent first-hand, everyday experience, would reverse that fear?

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jqm将近 11 年前

I think the eventual solution to racism will be love.OK, maybe not love, but at least lust. We tend to take a very narrow time view of a few hundred years. However I can't but imagine in the US in two or three hundred years it will become increasingly harder to tell races apart.Look at countries like Brazil. Look at the amount of interracial marriage going on right now in the US as opposed to 50 years ago. That I suspect is the future and I don't know how racism survives it.

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hawkharris将近 11 年前

Hate speech can be a good thing. When someone verbalizes hatred, he or she gives us a chance to push back and question underlying prejudices. This is always better than a heckler's veto of racist or sexist ideas. Drowning out the hurtful speech doesn't address the root causes of ignorance, fear and anger.

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tokenadult将近 11 年前

The kind of people who hang out on the Stormfront website are the kind of people who cram all kinds of point-of-view pushing into articles on Wikipedia, "the encyclopedia anyone can edit." Basically, you would be wise to assume that any article on Wikipedia that pertains to any topic related to "race" (broadly construed) or immigration or the history of Fascist or neo-Nazi movements is skewed at present toward the Stormfront point of view,[1] although of course there are Wikipedians who are trying to clean up that mess.[2] People who gain their "knowledge" of the world from websites like Stormfront seem to end up like the unfortunate victims of early lobotomies performed by inserting icepicks into their skulls: permanently brain-damaged and no longer able to perceive or understand facts contrary to their ideological position. I can only hope that such a toxic website will diminish in influence as people who know better about those issues take care to promote understanding those issues better early and often among all the young people coming up in the next generation.AFTER EDIT: I guess I would learn something if I asked why this was downvoted, not seeing any comment in reply here. I'll note for the record that some of the arguments given in this very thread for why it is a "valid critique" or "human nature to discriminate" as part of thinking about the issues Stormfront brings up get into our HN community from developers and other smart people who haven't studied history or social science much getting their knowledge of these topics from Wikipedia articles that have been subtly corrupted by Stormfront-supporting Wikipedians.[1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests...</a>[2] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:WeijiBaikeBianji/AnthropologyHumanBiologyRaceCitations" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:WeijiBaikeBianji/Anthropo...</a>

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protonfish将近 11 年前

I don't like how the word "hate" has been co-opted to mean "racist." I hate caraway seeds and bullies and I believe my feelings are justified. (Seriously, why put rock-hard seeds that taste like turpentine into food?) Somebody could be racist without feeling hatred at all. In fact, it is these cold-hearted sociopaths that disturb me the most. Hatred can be a proper, constructive reaction to cruelty and corruption. Don't let racists take that away from us and don't let them hide their true agenda with a normal human emotion.

noname123将近 11 年前

I'm glad an "Internet Developer [in] Jew York City" is one example that the author picked to profile. I personally believe that the current "sensitivity training" and "diversity-based" US K-12/college education based on African American literature, history classes on MLK and slavery is misdirected.Instead I propose a curriculum where we teach our children the dark side of humanity and allow both white, blacks and asians express our racial and other prejudices openly and honestly. Then to encourage and train everyone to come up with a plan of their own to overcome whatever perceived prejudices in athletics, academics or artistic outlets offered in schools.Instead of suppressing the human nature to discriminate and giving people a sense of their own agency to either confront their bullies, or to subvert the majority power or to overcome in a round-bout way the limitations imposed on them, we allow people to feel entitled to an abstract idea of "fairness" and "justice" which never existed in American society. And we end up with one hand, "diversity HR Managers," "social justice campaigners" who resort to the ideals of civil rights to rally people, but are actually oppressing people by feeding them a false sense of moral superiority. On the other hand, the "banally evil" professionals who pay lip service to "go along with it" but actually just operates business as usual.Instead of acting "shocked" and "indignant" every time about racism, we should openly acknowledge it in ourselves and concede that it'll never go away. I believe ironically, the benefit of not suppressing that speech and shaming sites such as Stormfront will help the discriminated people to find power in themselves to overcome than the other way around ("white lady" going into the hood for Teach for America to rescue all the poor inner city kids).

cookiecaper将近 11 年前

I've flagged this article because it's not really apropos to HN, but we'll never have a truly sympathetic or constructive discussion with others when we openly editorialize their beliefs as "bigotry" or "hatred". Even if they are wrong, framing the discussion in these terms just ensures that no constructive or beneficial dialogue can occur between the parties. Any time you see words like this used, especially in the abundance used in this article, you should understand that there are likely rhetorical and political forces at work intent on discounting the other side (i.e., this is the language of propaganda, not true journalism).I do have a question in that vein, if anyone is still reading these comments. At what point does a group cross the rubicon such that it's an acceptable implementation of journalistic ethics to slap these kinds of labels on their fundamental beliefs and statements? Isn't journalism supposed to convey events and groups in a neutral context, without favoring one side or the other? I understand almost no organizations like that exist anymore, but hypothetically speaking, I guess. Where is the line of demarcation between a group that still deserves a fair airing of beliefs and the respect of journalistic ethics and a group that doesn't?Newspapers obviously do not have an obligation to publish rants by any and every madman who comes along, but once they start to gather a significantly-sized following, isn't there a duty to archive and catalog the events in a neutral manner, for the accuracy of the historical record if nothing else? Isn't that what journalism is supposed to be about? I'm just curious how this works and is considered within the industry. I'll be honest, from a distance, it seems that the new journalistic ethics are "If it supports your boss's beliefs, run with it and make it positive; if it tears down your boss's opponents, run with it and make it as damning as possible".

jqm将近 11 年前

Why would anyone register for a site like this?Doesn't everyone know by now that putting your name on a list of white supremacists might not be a good move?I guess white supremacy and intelligence may be negatively correlated? Or maybe they just don't care.I sometimes picture a secret room at the FBI with poor clerks running around trying to avoid being buried under ever growing lists of suspicious people being spit out of printers with the advent of the internet.With all the druggies, the communist sympathizers, the insurance fraud researching, the radical environmentalists, the anarchists, the bomb curious, the pedo interested, the racial supremacists.... heck, they probably barely have time to watch all the Muslims any more. It was probably a whole lot easier when they only had a few people to keep an eye on.