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Ask HN: Why hasn't Dart become mainstream?

39 点作者 vsergiu将近 11 年前
There was a lot of hype for Dart a couple of months/1 year ago and now it seems it faded away. What happened?

29 条评论

bussiere将近 11 年前
From wikipedia :<p>=<p>A special version of Chromium (the open-source browser at the core of Google Chrome) comes with the Dart virtual machine, allowing it to run Dart programs.[19] As of May 2013, Microsoft Internet Explorer, Mozilla Firefox, Opera Software&#x27;s Opera browser, and Apple Safari have no plan to embed a separate Dart VM.[citation needed]<p>Dart source code can be compiled to JavaScript, allowing applications written in Dart to run in all modern web browsers. In the M1 version, released in October 2012, the generated JavaScript reached about 78% of the performance of hand-written JavaScript while native Dart code ran about 21% faster than similar code in V8.[6]<p>=<p>So for me : No browser except a special version of chromium, and slower than javascript whend compiled in it. So NO ...<p>We have a lot of problem to have some standards on the web (css anyone ? ) , we fight with ie6, so taking such a non standard is nope.
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tosh将近 11 年前
I might be a bit biased (we&#x27;re happily using Dart in production at <a href="https://www.blossom.io" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.blossom.io</a>) but:<p>I see more and more people I know who&#x27;ve been on the fence earlier to actually start to play around with Dart recently (last few weeks).<p>Why?<p>Improved Dart support for IDEs apart from the Eclipse based Dart Editor:<p><pre><code> * IntelliJ Webstorm&#x2F;IDEA: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dartlang.org&#x2F;tools&#x2F;webstorm&#x2F; &amp; http:&#x2F;&#x2F;plugins.jetbrains.com&#x2F;plugin&#x2F;6351 * Sublime: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;dart-lang&#x2F;dart-sublime-bundle * Chrome Dev Editor: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;dart-lang&#x2F;chromedeveditor </code></pre> The platform itself is also maturing quickly. Some notable recent things from the top of my head:<p><pre><code> * Soon: Dart on App Engine: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dartlang.org&#x2F;cloud&#x2F; * Polymer.dart (replacement for Web UI, interop w&#x2F; Polymer.js) * Angular.dart (now 6 times faster! http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.angulardart.org&#x2F;) * Dart became an official ECMA Standard (http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ecma-international.org&#x2F;publications&#x2F;files&#x2F;ECMA-ST&#x2F;ECMA-408.pdf) * More and more incredible packages to use on pub http:&#x2F;&#x2F;pub.dartlang.org&#x2F;packages?page=1 * Dart 1.6 soon to be released which supports installing pub packages globally (similar to npm) * People start to learn about functional reactive programming and Dart as great native support for its concepts: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dartlang.org&#x2F;docs&#x2F;tutorials&#x2F;streams&#x2F; </code></pre> Building and releasing non-trivial projects takes some time so there is always a bit of an incubation period re visibility of adoption and like I said from my own perception even though it is just a personal anecdote Dart is getting picked up.<p>Shameless plug: I&#x27;ve also started a series of posts on why I fell in love with Dart. If you&#x27;re interested to learn more check it out:<p><a href="https://medium.com/why-dart/why-i-fell-in-love-with-dart-1f89554a4171" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;why-dart&#x2F;why-i-fell-in-love-with-dart-1f8...</a>
christopherslee将近 11 年前
My developer experience with Dart was not a good one. The most succinct way that I read from other developer experiences on the internet was, &quot;It&#x27;s the worst parts of Java brought into Javascript&quot;. Not intended as a trolling statement, but like other folks have posted, it didn&#x27;t strike me as having provided interesting value&#x2F;productivity gain.
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rogerbinns将近 11 年前
I&#x27;ve been increasingly sceptical of things from Google, because of their track record. That includes the usual losing interest, as well as general people avoidance. Quite simply they are not a safe bet.<p>That all said it takes time for things to become mainstream. See the Joel article: &quot;Good Software Takes Ten Years&quot; <a href="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000017.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.joelonsoftware.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;fog0000000017.html</a><p>Go dates from 2007, and is currently 8 years old, and is heading into the mainstream. Dart is about 3 years old - it will take more time plus a non-typical Google track record to get there, if it ever does.
proussea将近 11 年前
I really hoped for something like python&#x2F;ruby&#x2F;coffeescript in the browser, and I got something that looks like Java. And yes, I admit it, I did stop to check Dart when i saw the curly braces. But others have probably better reasons ...
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fmuaddib将近 11 年前
I&#x27;m being using Dart for months now and I think people will soon realize that it deserves to be the next javascript.<p>Here is what Dart really is: Node.js without the JavaScript baggage — I like Node.js because of the principles on which it was built: run things asynchronously whenever possible, use data streams whenever you can get away with it, and tie it all together with futures and callbacks. The problem with Node.js is that it’s JavaScript. There’s no distinction between types of numbers, working with arrays is always janky, NaN-infused wat moments abound, and so on.<p>But Dart gives you everything that’s great about Node.js without the baggage of JavaScript clinging to the project like a nagging, alcoholic in-law. Dart has an incredibly robust stream API and top-notch futures support baked into the core dart:async library, plus a bunch of other stuff that you get for free, like WebSockets, SSL support, a decent math library (complete with ints, nums, and doubles out of the box), as well as the foundations for an Erlang-flavored actor system in the dart:isolate library.<p>Basically, server-side Dart is trying to solve the same problems that Node.js was built to solve, i.e. problems around asynchronous, non-blocking I&#x2F;O, but is doing so on a better VM and with a more robust and less flaky language. Another bit of good news is that Dart in practice is highly reminiscent of JavaScript, from the basic syntax to callback functions as first-class citizens, which means that the bridge from Node.js to Dart isn’t a terribly precarious one.
saosebastiao将近 11 年前
The web doesn&#x27;t need another language. It needs a sandboxable VM which has the DOM as a first class citizen. Dart didn&#x27;t address that need...it merely provided another language and tried to strongarm its way into becoming a standard.
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ReginaldBull将近 11 年前
To me Dart is really a great alternative to JS. The less I have to code in JS the better. Dart gives me the Java&#x2F;c++ kind of language, has a lot of nice features out of the box, IntelliJ has a nice Dart-plugin - I can use strong typeded vars... Sure Dart has its kickups and it&#x27;s traps but it i envolves and becomes more mature every day.<p>What the Dart Team got wrong was that at first there target were all the JS-Devs out there. I think, a wrong decision. If you like JS, if you are used to the whole toolstack, you probably stay with JS. But if you like a statically typed, modern, language then Dart is a greate alternative.
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adrianlmm将近 11 年前
IMHO, Is not ready for main stream yet.<p>1.- There isn&#x27;t native support in any browser, not even Chrome.<p>2.- Still has plenty of bugs.<p>But there are cases where Dart is used, so, the reasons my vary.
mark_l_watson将近 11 年前
Last year I was very enthusiastic about Dart, and before that Clojurescript.<p>What put me off both languages was an experiment I did: I coded up the same non-trivial web app in Clojurescript and Meteor. I wrote the Meteor app in about half the time and it had more features. I didn&#x27;t do the experiment with Dart, but I have written enough server and client experiments in Dart that I believe that Dart is not as agile as Meteor using plain JavaScript.<p>That said, Dart is nice, and for some combined client&#x2F;server projects it makes sense. I don&#x27;t understand the complaints about it being a Google project though. I used GWT a while back on personal projects and for customer work, and Google did a good job of open sourcing it so betting a company on GWT seemed safe enough. I have the same opinion about Dart - it could have a life without Google support.
drabiega将近 11 年前
I like Dart quite a bit. The tools are pretty nice and it has some good features. It&#x27;s biggest problem from my perspective was the largely unfinished documentation. Many of the methods in the API reference list only signatures. I&#x27;d use it for some projects if they ever fix that.
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Derbasti将近 11 年前
Or rather, why doesn&#x27;t there seem to be much discussion about new native programming languages in the browser?<p>JavaScript has many flaws, and there are plenty of languages available that have similar properties as JavaScript that do not exhibit these flaws.
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Shish2k将近 11 年前
I wasn&#x27;t interested in the first place, because I don&#x27;t want to replace JS with a different new browser-centric language; I want to replace it with an existing good general-purpose language that just happens to run in a browser.
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Igglyboo将近 11 年前
The only thing that even supports it is a special version of Chromium so why would anyone support it.<p>If we could use it in mainline Chrome&#x2F;Chromium then maybe it could start to take off but currently the install base is way smaller than even Chromes.
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aikah将近 11 年前
&gt; There was a lot of hype for Dart a couple of months&#x2F;1 year ago and now it seems it faded away. What happened?<p>I personnaly dont use Dart because IMHO there are better options right now for people who dont like writing raw javascript.<p>Coffeescript gives the declarative style i want for quick dev.<p>Typescript gives me the &quot;type safety&quot; that allows managing large codebases.<p>Clojurescript for other stuff.<p>The only reason I would use Dart is if Dart was part of the Android dev stack,or Chrome for the public.<p>I see little reason to use Dart right now,though Dart has some very good libraries,for game development,angular dart ,etc ... So maybe in the future perhaps.<p>I think Microsoft strategy (Typescript) is a better one.
pisabev将近 11 年前
Dart is alive and getting better with each release. I&#x27;m coding with Dart for 7 months now. I&#x27;m using it in production and don&#x27;t want to look back. I&#x27;m not javascript hater, in fact i like javascript but Dart gives me much more - better app design, better performance, better productivity. The only downside is the libraries available (although growing constantly) - needs more time. We&#x27;ve ported relatively big javascript application (around 50k rows of code) and we&#x27;re quite happy with the final result (hope never to write big javascript app again).
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outside1234将近 11 年前
TypeScript and CoffeeScript are better in this space. Much more like JavaScript.<p>TypeScript in particular, brings something like ES6 to today&#x27;s browsers.
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jnowlan将近 11 年前
Are there any plans for a coffeescript&#x2F;python implementation of Dart? Could that be done as a preprocessor?<p>As trivial as that sounds, that is part of what has hindered its adoption. I seem to remember reading about the Dart team learning that many early adopters were not c++&#x2F;java people but Pythonista&#x27;s. You&#x27;d think they would have adapted to that.
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marcosdumay将近 11 年前
I&#x27;d say that Javascript is currently living a renaissanse, with people creating libraries that make it operate on completely different (and incompatible) paradigms.<p>Untill we have one (or few) winning paradigm, there is no point in replacing Javascript. Whatever we create will become obsolet before it gets adopted.
Mikeb85将近 11 年前
I dunno, as far as a compile to JS, statically typed language I prefer Haxe. But JS is a great language - super flexible and powerful. How some people choose to use it is questionable at times, but there&#x27;s no doubt that it&#x27;s powerful.
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lmm将近 11 年前
Mozilla more or less killed it by saying they&#x27;d never support it.
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LBarret将近 11 年前
Currently, it is not very compelling, it is well engineered but different enough to fuel enthusiasm.<p>But if someone produces something interesting with it, all can change...as soon as tomorrow.
Joof将近 11 年前
This may be naive, but why can&#x27;t we just have an in-between compiled language (that isn&#x27;t JS) that any language can compile to and compile back from?
islon将近 11 年前
For me it doesn&#x27;t have any interesting feature that would make me use it over Clojurescript. No macros, no functional focus, just the old Java way.
dgregd将近 11 年前
Because it has too few good libraries and frameworks. For example I am waiting for a good Postgresql driver. The existing drivers have _async_ API.
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xyproto将近 11 年前
Which types of applications are Dart especially good at? I suspect there are currently always better alternatives.
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EugeneOZ将近 11 年前
By the same reason why Rust hasn&#x27;t became mainstream yet - just too young.
antidaily将近 11 年前
I, for one, welcome our new javascript-killing overlords.
innguest将近 11 年前
Remind me again why it&#x27;s so hard to come up with a better alternative to the current HTML+CSS+JS mess?<p>Is the only problem the fact that we need a language that can be easily sandboxed? Isn&#x27;t Lua like that?<p>Supposing we solve the sandboxing problem, what&#x27;s the next problem? Offering a decent drawing API? Why not just offer an OpenGL viewport or something like SVG but with interactivity?<p>I really need to be educated on what is the hard part about this (besides widespread adoption - so I guess I&#x27;m wondering what&#x27;s the technical obstacle).
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