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Tim Hortons agrees to Burger King offer for $94 a share

99 点作者 oulipian超过 10 年前

20 条评论

somberi超过 10 年前
Tim Hortons has been owned by a large U.S. chain before. It was spun off from Wendy’s in 2006 and became a publicly listed company that is now widely held by Canadian financial institutions, without one controlling shareholder (Quoting from The Star).<p>Reproducing relevant parts from an recent article from The Economist:<p>America’s corporate tax has two horrible flaws. The first is the tax rate, which at 35% is the highest among the 34 mostly rich-country members of the OECD. Yet it raises less revenue than the OECD average thanks to myriad loopholes and tax breaks aimed at everything from machinery investment to NASCAR race tracks. Last year these breaks cost $150 billion in forgone revenue, more than half of what America collected in total corporate taxes.<p>The second flaw is that America levies tax on a company’s income no matter where in the world it is earned. In contrast, every other large rich country taxes only income earned within its borders. Here, too, America’s system is absurdly ineffective at collecting money. Firms do not have to pay tax on foreign profits until they bring them back home. Not surprisingly, many do not: American multinationals have some $2 trillion sitting on their foreign units’ balance-sheets, and growing.<p>The real solution is to lower the corporate rate, eliminate tax breaks and move America from a worldwide system to a territorial one.
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apendleton超过 10 年前
The real story here is in the nature of the acquisition, a so-called &quot;inversion&quot; that will create a combined Canadian, rather than American, company, which is likely to substantially reduce Burger King&#x27;s corporate tax liability.
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bhouston超过 10 年前
The growth potential for Tim Hortons seems limited in my opinion -- it will continue to fill each corner of Canada, but we already know that and this is priced into its existing valuation. It dominantes Canada but that is because it is seen as part of Canadiana. It&#x27;s attempts to expand into the US have generally not succeeded.[1]<p>Both are already large enough to have economies of scale in terms of purchasing power, thus I do not see the reason for this outside of tax savings.<p>Strangely, a lot of Tim Hortons in Canada share buildings with Wendy&#x27;s. Thus there is some cross pollination there between these two, maybe the strategy is to take this to the extreme and have nearly each Tim Horton&#x27;s location be paired with a Burger King.<p>BTW some of the richest people I know (10,000 sq ft homes) own Tim Horton franchises (usually in central locations in major cities.) A boring business compared to startups, but damn it can be crazy profitable. Might be the time to snap those locations up if they are going to do some major US expansion.<p>[1] See <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hortons#Northeastern_US_decline" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Tim_Hortons#Northeastern_US_de...</a> But another commenter disputes that and he may have more recent information.
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ctdonath超过 10 年前
Here&#x27;s hoping this means TH goes national (if not worldwide). We need a TH in Atlanta; good coffee, donuts better than Krispy Kreme and Dunkin Donuts.<p>Recalls my notion of a &quot;Franchise In A Box&quot;: in a shipping container, pack up all the necessities for installing&#x2F;opening a retail store&#x2F;restaurant overnight in a typical retail space, and rapid removal if needed. Good for short-use venue events such as major conventions, or for jumpstarting a business by opening a functional (albeit minimal) store in available short-lease space while a more elaborate&#x2F;complete&#x2F;larger implementation is being installed.<p>I mention this as an eager would-be customer, wishing that BK (having more interest in &quot;lower 48&quot; USA expansion than pre-merger TH) could now just arrange some short-term leases, rent a &quot;Tim Hortons In A Box&quot;, and open a few test&#x2F;introductory locations within a few days. I want my Tim&#x27;s! Moreso, my Canadian wife wants a Tim&#x27;s in Atlanta ASAP, and ya gotta realize that to Canadians, Tim Hortons is like Starbucks deified.
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ipsin超过 10 年前
Oddly the article doesn&#x27;t seem to explain why this sort of deal makes sense:<p>1) Overseas cash for a U.S. corporation isn&#x27;t taxed unless it&#x27;s brought into the U.S., so if you have a pile of overseas cash, why not buy something?<p>2) Moving your headquarters to a country with a lower corporate tax rate can also be good (though I believe Canada has a lower stated corporate tax rate, I&#x27;m not sure how its effective corporate tax rate compares to the U.S.)<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_inversion" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Tax_inversion</a>
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cvburgess超过 10 年前
The only real reason for this merger is a corporate inversion[1] - a lot of companies are doing it. Corporate inversions allow you to move your HQ outside of the US and reap huge tax benefits.<p>[1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_inversion" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Corporate_inversion</a>
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waterside81超过 10 年前
I&#x27;m sure other Canadians on HN might agree - it feels a little weird to see our darling Tim Horton&#x27;s on the front page of US business sites (and HN of all places!) and to see words like &quot;double-double&quot; and &quot;timbits&quot; used.
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Raphmedia超过 10 年前
This is strange to me. I see a lot of burger kings closing up while tims are going strong.
uladzislau超过 10 年前
Discussion of the merger talks from yesterday <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8222432" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8222432</a>
Scoundreller超过 10 年前
&quot;But Burger King already managed to get its tax rate down to 27.5 per cent last year, company filings show. Tim Hortons paid 26.8 per cent tax in Canada last year, according the its annual report.&quot;<p>Of course, these are the mean interest rates. If it has the opportunity to shift higher-than-average taxes into lower ones by geo-shifting, without affecting its lower-than-average taxes, it&#x27;s average rate will go down.
VLM超过 10 年前
Missing some obvious LOTR here, &quot;return of the King&quot; and &quot;One does not simply walk into Canada&quot;. You even have the competition, Ronald McDonald, as a stand in for sauron.<p>I&#x27;ve been looking at it like a near startup style pivot. Can&#x27;t out mcdonalds the mcdonalds company? Well then pivot and try selling unburned coffee and donuts. It could work.
jstalin超过 10 年前
Just for some context, Burger King had $233 million of net income in 2013 and paid $88 million in income taxes.<p><a href="http://investor.bk.com/download_arquivos.asp?id_arquivo=C0B7F543-DEA6-4852-ACB8-F589DFD66CC7" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;investor.bk.com&#x2F;download_arquivos.asp?id_arquivo=C0B7...</a>
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martingordon超过 10 年前
Glad to see that the Burger King business unit will stay in Miami: <a href="http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/08/25/4308025/burger-king-in-talks-to-buy-tim.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.miamiherald.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;08&#x2F;25&#x2F;4308025&#x2F;burger-king-in...</a>
cryptoz超过 10 年前
Daniel Schwartz, CEO of Burger King, is known for being unusual in his industry: <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/25/investing/burger-king-ceo-age-33/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;money.cnn.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;08&#x2F;25&#x2F;investing&#x2F;burger-king-ceo-ag...</a>
luckyno13超过 10 年前
All I want to know is whether I can get Timbits in the South Eastern U.S. as a result of this :)
johnward超过 10 年前
I don&#x27;t get Tim Hortons. Maybe because I&#x27;m an American but I feel like other Americans don&#x27;t really get Tim Hortons as much as Canada does.
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howeyc超过 10 年前
As a Canadian working in the US, I have a pipe dream. All Burger Kings turn in to Tim Horton&#x27;s. Would be awesome.
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todd8超过 10 年前
Once upon a time, I was an engineer with only the most superficial understanding of taxes and the economy. Today, I&#x27;m still only an engineer (at heart), but in the many many years of working and investing I&#x27;ve learned a few things. (I have only had one formal course in economics. At least it was taught by Robert Solow.) Those that already understand the corporate tax even a little should probably skip this post (and to those that really understand it feel free to correct me where I don&#x27;t understand it well enough). Taxes and their effects are considerably more complex in real life than my examples below.<p>When a partnership makes money, the profits flow through to the partners and are taxed as ordinary income, so to compare:<p><pre><code> XYZ Parners (having 10 equal parners) makes $10,000,000 Tom (a parner) has: Additional ordinary income: $1,000,000 Taxes: Federal (%39.6) -$396,000 State (CA %12.3) -$123,000 ---------------------------------------- Net: $481,000 ABC Corp (with say 10 owners) makes $10,000,000 in profit Corporate profits $10,000,000 Taxes: Federal (%35) -$3,500,000 State (CA %8.84) -$ 884,000 ---------------------------------------- Net: $ 5,616,000 </code></pre> Note that this $5,616,000 can be retained by the corporation, but nobody actually benefits from it until it is distributed to the owners, distributed to it ten owners as dividends:<p><pre><code> Tina (an owner) receives $561,600 dividend payment Additional investment income of $561,600 Taxes: Federal (%23.8) -$133,661 State (CA %8.84) -$ 49,645 ---------------------------------------------------- Net: $378,294 </code></pre> There are a few things to notice here, before an owner gets any money out of a C corp, there are four taxes leveied and over %60 of the company&#x27;s profits are taxed away. This puts corporations at a disadvantage, tax-wise, to parnerships under my very simplified example. They are also at a disadvantage to foriegn corporations that don&#x27;t have high corporate tax rates.<p>There are direct ways for the corporation to control its profits. It can increase wages to employees. In this case say there are 100 employees, each compensated the same and all profits are paid out to employees:<p><pre><code> Tim (an employee) receives a bonus of $100,000 (1&#x2F;100 * 10 Million) Additional ordinary income $100,000 Taxes: Federal (%35) -$35,000 State (CA %8.84) -$ 8,840 --------------------------------------------- Net: $56,160 </code></pre> These taxes are paid by each of the 100 employees receiving bonuses.<p>Another way that a corporation can lower its profits is by lowering the price of good sold, which benefits consumers.<p>Owners of the corporation like Tina above want to make something from the ownership of the company and through the board of directors (voted in by Tina and the others) they expect the company to eventually issue dividends (even if it is too far in the future to benifit Tina the building retained earnings will drive up the value of Tina&#x27;s shares because of the <i>anticipation</i> of future dividends). This keeps corporations aiming for profits; their owners insist on it. Eventually Tina will have to pay taxes on the capital gains from the increased value of her shares or to pay taxes on dividend issued by the corporation.<p>Note that parnerships don&#x27;t pay corporate taxes, instead the owners pay income taxes on the profits. Corporate taxes introduce another layer of taxes and complicate the tax system. Why not have zero corporate tax? Firms structured as parnerships don&#x27;t pay corporate taxes and the income will still be taxed by the time it gets to Tom or Tina. No indivdual gets away without paying taxes on money he or she receives no matter what the corporate tax rate is. This is why other countries can have lower corporate tax rate that the US.<p>Of what benefit are corporate taxes. Like VATs, corporate taxes affect the entire population. The impacts are diffuse and a bit opaque so the voters being affected by it are unaware of it, so it is a less painful way for governments to raise more revenue from us. Corporate taxes raise the cost of capital to corporations, which has a negative impact on the growth of the overall economy. Further, it incentivises companies to actively lobby for special breaks and perks. Politicians of all stripes like this system because corporations are big donors that keep the croney capitalism going.<p>The real question is who bears the corporate tax and is this the most efficient and fair way to collect taxes [1]. In my own opinion, I don&#x27;t think it is a good idea. Why not simply raise taxes on dividend income to ordinary rates and eliminate the corporate tax entirely. This would eliminate the competition for loopholes that distort the whole economy and hurt us all.<p>[1] Who Bears the Corporate Tax? A Review of What We Know, <a href="http://www.nber.org/chapters/c0065.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nber.org&#x2F;chapters&#x2F;c0065.pdf</a>
hadoukenio超过 10 年前
It&#x27;s all to do with periodical cicadas populations.
iillmaticc超过 10 年前
Two companies...one mediocre...one I don&#x27;t believe large enough to pull the deadweight of the other...trying to mitigate tax burden and safe face.......Where I went to University there was a Burger King that was right by my old apartment and it just so happened to sit on a huge piece of property...and property there wasn&#x27;t cheap (relatively speaking) and we prayed for 5 years that&#x27;d they sell it and put in a Panera Bread.