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Steve Yegge: Lisp is not an acceptable Lisp. (2006)

72 点作者 steiger超过 15 年前

7 条评论

lispm超过 15 年前
it is still Yegge: shallow and mostly wrong.<p>People who actually use Lisp (opposed to people who only write about it) have no problem that there are extensions to the standard. The whole point of Lisp is that it is easily extended in many ways: the programmable programming language. Sure it brings a bunch of problems, but that's what it is and why people use it.<p>The stuff he writes about CLOS is mostly wrong. CLOS is not implemented as a bunch of macros. CLOS is actually a three level architecture: the core is written object-oriented in CLOS itself, on top is a functional interface and for user convenience there is a bunch of macros for easy definition of classes, generic functions, methods and some other language objects.<p>Then, macros are no problem. They are a feature. No, 'hygienic' is fine, but not needed. No they don't need to be rethought. They do a useful job like they are.<p>No, Lisp will never be massively successful (because it is a bit too complicated, too dynamic, too powerful for many users) and bending the language trying to make it 'massively successful' won't improve anything. No, I don't want a dictator. Lisp has choice, various alternatives and a more democratic approach.<p>Lisp is still a good choice for computing with symbols. If you don't need that, then you might not need Lisp. But that's not a reason that Lisp should change. Should a helicopter be changed in design because someone does not use it, but drives a car? Should the helicopter be changed, because more people drive cars, getting a drivers license for cars is easier than getting a pilot's license for helicopters? Lisp is different, for a reason and this difference will ensure its survival for many years. We have now fifty years that the basic ideas have proven to be useful and I don't see that this will change in the coming years.
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andreyf超过 15 年前
It's always bothered me how imprecise we are with words as computer scientists. Lisp is not a language in the sense that Python or Java is. PLT Scheme is much (much!) farther from elisp in feature sets than Python is from Java.<p>The only thing unique to Lispy languages (and really <i>not</i> at all that hard to understand) is the language syntax and the way the compilation rules are late-bound. That is, the compiler is intended to be extended by the user. Roughly, you're intended to be able to say "unless (...)" will translate to "if (!...)".<p>The rest of the design decisions made aren't even that outlandish: you still have text which is parsed and either interpreted or compiled into machine code, which is run. More foreign (and interesting), I think, is the research being done at Alan Kay's lab now:<p><a href="http://piumarta.com/software/cola/" rel="nofollow">http://piumarta.com/software/cola/</a>
jimbokun超过 15 年前
"My prediction: someone will get tired of waiting, and they'll Torvalds Arc into obsolescence before it's ever released."<p>This is what Rich Hickey did with Clojure, more or less. So this was a pretty accurate prediction.
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felideon超过 15 年前
Don't miss Pascal Costanza's opinion in the comments, to put things in perspective from an expert Lisper:<p><i>My impression is that you [haven't used] neither Common Lisp nor Scheme on a regular basis, and/or in a considerably sized software project. Most of the issues that you mention are "academic", in the sense that they are theoretical problems which tend not to bite you in practice</i>
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mgrouchy超过 15 年前
I wish he still wrote this blog.
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raganwald超过 15 年前
An interesting follow-up: Eric Kidd on "Why Ruby is an Acceptable Lisp"<p><a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=825809" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=825809</a>
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moscoso超过 15 年前
This article was published in 2006. Why is being posted again?
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