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Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn

599 点作者 superfx超过 10 年前

36 条评论

zwieback超过 10 年前
Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany. Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms, restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don&#x27;t even get me started on the sports, it&#x27;s an outrage how US schools have become sports franchises.<p>I&#x27;m guessing most US students would be shocked by the reality of German public universities which basically consist of giant rooms with blackboards and there&#x27;s not much general ed to speak of. At the graduate level it gets more interesting but that&#x27;s in years 5-8. My first 4 years studying ME in Stuttgart were almost 100% lectures with a final exam at the end of the semester. Virtually no tutoring and very little corrected homework.<p>You don&#x27;t get what you don&#x27;t pay for. On the other hand, you don&#x27;t really get what you pay for in the US either since the universities have become so good at sucking up more and more student loan money without really improving on their core mission of providing higher education.
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jiggy2011超过 10 年前
Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university fees and social mobility?<p>On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from attending.<p>But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and this seems to be true everywhere. In this case it doesn&#x27;t seem fair to tax people who are poor to pay for something that is mainly of benefit to the rich.<p>In the UK we have a student loan system where students do not have to pay back loans unless they earn over a threshold amount, so in theory there is nothing to prevent a poor person going to university regardless of how high the fees are.
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saool超过 10 年前
I wish the debate focused less on cost-benefit analysis and on ways to engineer a just &quot;chargeback&quot; using loans or taxes and more about the idea that maybe people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it, to become free men and free thinkers, regardless of whether they&#x27;d be economically better off by taking electricity at trade school just to quickly join the assembly line at Volkswagen so that they can make money to buy a bigger plasma TV. &#x2F;rant
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cmdkeen超过 10 年前
There&#x27;s a big difference between no tuition fees and &quot;free&quot; education. All this means is that the cost of education is passed on to all tax payers.<p>Now this can be justified, there is utility in having an educated workforce and society. However when everyone is paying there is a need to have a decision about how many people need that education to provide the benefits everyone gets. The UK is seeing these problems with 40% of school leavers going to university. There aren&#x27;t enough jobs for graduates and we are way past the point of marginal returns in terms of social or cultural advancement.<p>Personally I much prefer the idea of fees and student loans. Not US style versions of either. In the UK they are effectively a graduate tax that you may pay off in time, they don&#x27;t harm your credit rating and repayments are a percentage of your income about a relatively high amount (close to the average salary).
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taejo超过 10 年前
I&#x27;m a student at a German university, and I don&#x27;t pay tuition fees, but I do pay about 400€ a year in &quot;semester fees&quot;, of which the two largest components are &quot;student services&quot; and a compulsory season ticket for regional transport; student union membership and some kind of insurance contribution are also included.
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raverbashing超过 10 年前
I find the &quot;American model&quot; and the &quot;European model&quot; dichotomy very interesting.<p>American model: individually centered, &quot;pay for what you want&quot;, development is driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). &quot;Works for me&quot;<p>European model: centered on the community, social support, development by committee&#x2F;government&#x2F;consensus. Slow but directed improvements<p>Germany <i>could not</i> have produced Facebook. But they have a great train network. France puts satellites on orbit and does the TGV.<p>In the US you have millionaires came out of &quot;nothing&quot; (of course, from nice universities, nice contacts, etc), people jumping at opportunities, while in Europe this would take 2 meetings, 3 viability studies and 4 months.<p>So, while I&#x27;m more towards in favour of the European model someone has to ask themselves what are they missing. Yes, they have a very nice and educated workforce that will be ready to work and be very productive at a big company where they will work hard, sure, but will come out with the least amount of new ideas (that&#x27;s not their job), and will do the things most likely to be accepted by the majority.
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Igglyboo超过 10 年前
It&#x27;s really crazy how the students reacted to this when the fees were introduced. They were very low compared to the US, less than 1000 euros for an entire year yet the students responded with mass protests and vandalism. On university also had it&#x27;s master key(ring?) stolen and had to spend a lot of money to redo every lock.<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_University#Protests_against_tuition_fees" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Bielefeld_University#Protests_a...</a>
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dang超过 10 年前
From <a href="http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/feature-germanys-great-tuition-fees-u-turn/2011168.fullarticle" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.timeshighereducation.co.uk&#x2F;features&#x2F;feature-germa...</a> it&#x27;s clear that tuition fees had only been around for a few years in Germany, were relatively low, and most states had already dropped them.<p>Edit: I think we&#x27;ll change the url to this article, because it&#x27;s more substantive and not behind a paywall like <a href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4213550.ece" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thetimes.co.uk&#x2F;tto&#x2F;news&#x2F;world&#x2F;europe&#x2F;article42135...</a> is.
rikacomet超过 10 年前
another version: <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/15/german-university-tuition-fees-abolished" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;world&#x2F;2011&#x2F;mar&#x2F;15&#x2F;german-universi...</a><p>I basically think this is a very big news. It effects a lot of people. Though I think this only applies (and should) to domestic students.<p>In our country (India) .. the Right to Education Act was a hot topic this year.. it still has to go a long way.. but it can learn from Germany&#x27;s example of doing away with the fees altogether in Public Universities. Young people are the driving force behind the economy. But many fail to live up to their potential due to economic constraints.<p>1. Most Public Universities already run mostly upon Tax-Payers Money. So Burden is not that sudden, as one would think.<p>2. Expansions would be more scrutinized. We have to look at this in terms of Fixed and Variable&#x2F;Recurring Cost.<p>3. Caution would be required on part of distributing the money corpus. Some colleges are in comfortable zone of the balance sheet, while some aren&#x27;t. Those who are not, need to be looked after.<p>4. Students should still be charged for some &quot;Extras&quot; like Foreign Trips (optional in many colleges).<p>I would love to know the finer details of how German Govt is handling the economics around this decision. This could be a Epic Success or Epic Fail. The dice has been cast.
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PythonicAlpha超过 10 年前
It should be noted here, that in the past (10-20 years ago), Germany did not have any tuition fees ... and fared very well with this model for many decades.<p>Only lately, because the German govnmt wanted to save the costs for the universities, they invented the fees with the argument, that with more funding, the quality of education could be better. But many universities just used the money to cover costs, that where not covered any more from the money they got from the country.<p>So, essentially it was a cost reduction program to reduce costs for the state finance ... thus freeing money that could go to banks and big companies.<p>The system was not well received by the students and also some German countries dropped the program, thus putting some pressure on the others, since the students prefered the universities without fees. I guess, that was the reason now, that the last country dropped the fees.<p>In my opinion, countries like GB make a big error by forcing enormous fees unto students. In the result, the students which do not come from millionaires houses are either at the mercy of the banks for decades or many people that well could study, just do not. Thus the nation looses many talents (in both outcomes).
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awendt超过 10 年前
I&#x27;m surprised no one brought up the bigger picture of which types of education Germans pay for and which they don&#x27;t.<p>While going to university has been free for a long time in Germany (and will be again according to this article), German parents pay for kindergarten and day care.<p>In most countries, it&#x27;s the other way around and I&#x27;d gladly pay for my kids to go to university than pay for the much more basic education before primary school. I paid up to 500 Euros a months for my son&#x27;s kindergarten. (This is is maximum amount, but that&#x27;s another story...)<p>This is why I don&#x27;t get that students were so eager to demonstrate against the introduction of tuition, claiming education is then reserved for rich people. The same argument could be brought up against payments for day care, but no one will acknowledge that. (I guess this is because students are willing to plan for family after the degree.)<p>Reversing this situation would result in better integration of kids from families with immigrant background which is a far better goal than to make higher education more accessible, regardless of money.
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xtc超过 10 年前
All German universities free of charge... [paywall]
malvim超过 10 年前
The federal and state universities here in Brazil have always been free. In fact, most people here use the terms &quot;public&quot; as a synonym for &quot;free of charge&quot;, when talking about education. I think this is great, but it is not &quot;education for everyone&quot; as sometimes it&#x27;s touted to be.<p>The problem we have is not about paying for college education, but in being able to pass the entry exams. Even though the public higher-education institutions are free of any tuition fees, an enormous part of their students is still composed of upper-middle-class kids, whose parents could afford the high-priced private middle and high schools.<p>It&#x27;s great we have free public schools, but the inclusion they should provide is still a long ways of becoming true.
s_dev超过 10 年前
Whilst tuition fees in Ireland have not really risen - registration fees have gone from €200 to €3,000 over the 08-14&#x27;recession. In the UK fees have also risen. Finland and Denmark are free. I&#x27;m not that familiar with Southern or Eastern Europe.<p>I think free third level institutions are important but I&#x27;m not opposed to the &quot;free now tax later after certain pay threshold&quot; education systems like Australia.<p>Also [image] this: <a href="https://i.imgur.com/SXNtYyi.jpg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;SXNtYyi.jpg</a> taken from corrosponding reddit thread is also relevant. It illustrates tuition fees in Europe.
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brkn超过 10 年前
I started paying around 250 Euro when starting my study at the university (2009). This term I had to pay aroung 290 Euro.<p>The fee for the TU Berlin is composed of:<p>Verwaltungsgebühr (gem. § 2 Abs. 7 BerlHG) (administrative fee)<p>50,00 €<p>Beitrag zur Studierendenschaft (Contribution to the student body)<p>8,70 €<p>Beitrag zum Studentenwerk (Contribution to the Student Services)<p>48,77 €<p>Beitrag zum Semesterticket (Contribution to the semester ticket)<p>179,40 €<p>Beitrag zum Sozialfonds zum Semesterticket (Contribution to the Social Fund for Semesterticket)<p>3,50 €<p>= 290,37 €<p>Of course it is still much cheaper than to study in other countries. But the fees are growing and you have to pay for the semester ticket, which is essentially a ticket for all public transportation in Berlin, even though you wouldn&#x27;t need it.<p>*Translated with Google Translator
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jo_超过 10 年前
I&#x27;ve been digging through this thread and can&#x27;t seem to find any information on the impact of &#x27;free tuition&#x27; on tuition costs. In the US, we saw an increase in loan availability result in a significant uptick in the price of attendance to universities. If the government is paying the cost of tuition, how is the cost of tuition kept in check?<p>Disclaimer: I love the idea of free public education. I wish it would take hold in the US. My only concern is how Universities will react to being paid almost arbitrary amounts of money per-student.
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subhro超过 10 年前
I wish this happened in US. The fee part, not the paid to read part :)
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Heliosmaster超过 10 年前
* University education? free<p>* Article to read about it? Pay for it.<p>This beautifully sums up the differences of education and news.
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ajuc超过 10 年前
Poland has both paid and free universities, state-run universities are free (but just for the daily courses, there are also evening courses and weekend courses that are paid).<p>Free courses are paid by taxes, and universities have a limit on how much students they can admit on paid courses depending on how much they admit on free courses.<p>There are also private universities with just paid courses, but they are much worse quality (they admit almost anoyone for money, so better students go to the state universities to study for free, and worse students only get admited to the paid ones).<p>The end result is - almost everybody go to the university and do M.A. in something. The education is usually OK, but not great (especially on the worse universities). Everybody have M.A. so it isn&#x27;t advantage in the job market, just a requirement (there were postman job offerings requiring M.A. for example :) ).<p>The problem is - Polish universities don&#x27;t do much science, they are mostly for education, people call them M.A. factories.
robomartin超过 10 年前
Not sure free education provides absolutely net positive results. More data might be required.<p>If you look at a country like Argentina, where university level education has been free probably since the country was founded you see issues. Running 10x more people through universities does not create 10x more prosperity. Lots of Medical Doctors in Argentina almost starve. Engineers drive taxis or own pizza joints. The only way some of these people can reliably make a solid change to their lives is to leave the country and seek work elsewhere. In that case the net effect within the nation is still negative.<p>Again, not sure how to think about something like this other than to operate under my admittedly preconceived notion that most people don&#x27;t value or work hard at anything that is free. I could be wrong.
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shmerl超过 10 年前
Impressive. I wish US would do the same.
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tyoma超过 10 年前
I see lots of envy from US and UK based people, but not any thought given to the great opportunity: Germany accepts international students.<p>Why not go to a German university and get a quality education paid for by the German taxpayer? As a bonus, you&#x27;ll get to learn German for free.
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GolfyMcG超过 10 年前
Why has no one brought up how the top German university is &quot;ranked&quot; 55th on this list:<p><a href="http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.timeshighereducation.co.uk&#x2F;world-university-ranki...</a><p>I&#x27;m not saying this list is definitive or that the US tuition prices are reasonable, but it stands to reason that the best of the best of anything is going to be exponentially more expensive than it&#x27;s next closest competitors.
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pmontra超过 10 年前
Jump on the time machine and read about university concerns when the city of Hamburg joined this trend in 2011 <a href="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/15/german-university-tuition-fees-abolished" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;world&#x2F;2011&#x2F;mar&#x2F;15&#x2F;german-universi...</a> Is there any German here that can tell us how it is turning out to be? Thanks.
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Havoc超过 10 年前
Hardly a u-turn. They went from no fees, to negligible fees (uproar) to no fees.<p>Also note that &quot;fees&quot; in the German context is a little bit different than other countries. e.g. Some of the compulsory costs are the equivalent to a transport season pass. Whilst I&#x27;ve got mixed feelings about that it sure seems more tangible that X amount of money disappearing into the general varsity fund.
omot超过 10 年前
&quot;you need to subscribe.&quot; I can&#x27;t read the article.
CurtMonash超过 10 年前
A century ago the German system basically had no grading until you had a set of oral examinations for your diploma at the end. Or so I was told by my German family.<p>When did that get changed?
davesque超过 10 年前
Wow...I guess I&#x27;m happy for them. But here in the US that just makes me feel depressed.
conkrete超过 10 年前
Would be nice if they could scrap the fees so I could read the entire article...
thedaveoflife超过 10 年前
One &quot;problem&quot; we have occasionally in Berlin: People enrolling as students without actually attending classes to get all the added benefits of being a student in Germany. Almost everything over here carries a student discount.
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SEJeff超过 10 年前
Do all professors become employed by the government then?
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alexweber超过 10 年前
Could someone please post the full text of the article…
hippich超过 10 年前
Lately I started thinking that students should be paid, not other way around. I.e. attending university should be considered a job, with pay based on performance (grades)
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pranayairan超过 10 年前
nice, it will promote more college education for people who drop of due to tuition fees.
etattva超过 10 年前
All american kids complaining about Tuition, move to Germany now
sarciszewski超过 10 年前
But the newspapers haven&#x27;t scrapped the paywall. (And setting my user agent to &quot;Mozilla&#x2F;5.0 (compatible; Googlebot&#x2F;2.1; +<a href="http://www.google.com/bot.html)&quot;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;bot.html)&quot;</a> didn&#x27;t dispel it :(