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A Neuroscientist’s Theory of How Networks Become Conscious (2013)

159 点作者 tegeek超过 10 年前

19 条评论

xnull超过 10 年前
Integrated Information Theory I think is a fad, and a bad one at that.<p>One could think of integration of information as a necessary but not sufficient condition for consciousness a la Scott Aaronson [1] who applies more rigorous mathematical examples of integrated systems - in fact ones close to maximal possible integrated information - that very clearly are unlikely have any measure of consciousness (like expander graphs and error correcting codes). What about ciphers, where small changes to a single bit in key, ciphertext or plaintext radically alters the evolution of the internals and output of the system?<p>But even that might be too strong a statement. Aren&#x27;t minimally interacting systems such as Conway&#x27;s Game of Life Turing Complete? There are tiny, tiny Universal Turing Machines, and UTMs are essentially free to encode&#x2F;decode their tape inputs in any way they see fit.<p>Ultimately while IIT has a &#x27;mathematical description&#x27; it mostly only serves to obfuscate a naive and trivial notion that &#x27;the system has to be complicated and has to integrate and process local information in some holistic global way&#x27;.<p>No shit.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1799" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scottaaronson.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;?p=1799</a>
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pedrosorio超过 10 年前
&quot;WIRED: Getting back to the theory, is your version of panpsychism truly scientific rather than metaphysical? How can it be tested?<p>Koch: In principle, in all sorts of ways. One implication is that you can build two systems, each with the same input and output — but one, because of its internal structure, has integrated information. One system would be conscious, and the other not. It’s not the input-output behavior that makes a system conscious, but rather the internal wiring.&quot;<p>Isn&#x27;t this the definition of a non-testable assertion? The observable input-output behavior is the same, yet he claims the property of consciousness is different. So where is the test?
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Animats超过 10 年前
<i>According to Koch, consciousness arises within any sufficiently complex, information-processing system. All animals, from humans on down to earthworms, are conscious; even the internet could be. That’s just the way the universe works.</i><p>Clearly one can build a hugely complex system that performs some special-purpose function and isn&#x27;t anywhere near &quot;conscious&quot;. Consider a big supercomputer doing finite-element analysis. Or a big network of packet routers.<p>Koch would probably argue that those aren&#x27;t &quot;sufficiently complex&quot;? So what&#x27;s the definition of &quot;sufficiently complex&quot;? Something that is &quot;conscious&quot;? This is not helpful.<p>Perhaps we should focus on &quot;common sense&quot;, rather than &quot;consciousness&quot;. Common sense can usefully be defined as the ability to predict (at least the near-term) consequences of actions. Given that, planning and evaluation of alternatives is possible. Most animals above the insect level have some capability in that area. They&#x27;re not purely reactive. We really need to get this figured out so we can build robots that can handle new situations without screwing up too badly.<p>Neuroscience has work to do at the bottom. Check out &quot;<a href="http://www.openworm.org/&quot;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.openworm.org&#x2F;&quot;</a>, where some people are trying to simulate the simplest nematode known at the neuron level. Until that works, neuroscience doesn&#x27;t really have neurons figured out.<p>Classic quote: &quot;Philosophy is the kicking up of a lot of dust and then complaining about what you can&#x27;t see&quot;.
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millstone超过 10 年前
Many drugs induce unconsciousness, but these don&#x27;t work by decreasing the complexity or organization of our brains. Doesn&#x27;t this neatly refute the idea that consciousness is an &quot;immanent property of highly organized pieces of matter, such as brains?&quot;
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Xcelerate超过 10 年前
&gt; Why we should live in such a universe is a good question, but I don’t see how that can be answered now.<p>His last point here is salient. Much like the various interpretations of quantum mechanics, any theories of consciousness are untestable. But my problem with &quot;consciousness&quot; is that it&#x27;s not even a well-defined concept. Suppose I replace all occurrences of &quot;consciousness&quot; in that article with the word &quot;qualgma&quot;. It makes just as much sense.<p>Gravity, electrons, and energy are all concepts that are <i>defined</i> to exist as the manifestation of certain physical phenomena that can be modeled and predicted with mathematical equations. These words are just English simplifications of the equations.<p>But consciousness has no such analogue. It&#x27;s just a term that people throw around when they talk about the brain. I believe that over time, it has started to acquire a more well-defined meaning -- something along the lines of &quot;the emergent properties of the brain&#x27;s activity resulting from lower-level processes&quot;. This is similar to how a human body is just the emergent result of many atomic interactions. This version of consciousness can be modeled, theorized about, and tested experimentally. There&#x27;s nothing magical about. As the brain&#x27;s neural circuitry becomes better understood, you could say consciousness is a simplified model that still has good predictive capability.<p>However, I would also like to focus on a much more interesting topic in the article:<p>&gt; My consciousness is an undeniable fact. One can only infer facts about the universe, such as physics, indirectly, but the one thing I’m utterly certain of is that I’m conscious.<p>I believe Koch is conflating two distinct concepts. If we take the definition of consciousness as the predictive modeling of the brain, then this is something <i>totally</i> different than what he&#x27;s talking about here. Let me alter his quote:<p>&gt; That I <i>experience my existence</i> is an undeniable fact. One can only infer facts about the universe, such as physics, indirectly, but the one thing I’m utterly certain of is that I <i>am experiencing existence</i>.<p>It&#x27;s really astonishing to me that he words it this way, because independently I have thought almost exactly the same thing for a long time.<p>I&#x27;ve often struggled to put this notion into words, but let me try it in a new way with an analogy. Suppose you see an apple floating in front of you. You tell other people &quot;Look at this apple!&quot; But they just go &quot;What apple?&quot; So, you try to get crafty. You take a picture of the apple with a digital camera. But when you show people the photo on the computer, they still see no apple. So you zoom in on the pixels and start copying the RGB values for each one by hand onto paper. &quot;Look, this value is 237!&quot; you say. And you sit down with a friend, and start calling each and every pixel&#x27;s values out as he puts them in manually into his image editing program. When he&#x27;s does, you say &quot;Ha! Look, there&#x27;s my apple, right on your screen! And you put it in there yourself!&quot; But he stares at you quizzically, and says, &quot;I still see no apple; just an empty table.&quot; And no matter what kind of tricky experimental method you try to come up with to get everyone else to understand the concept of this apple that&#x27;s always floating in front of you, every attempt to catch it produces a representation of the apple for you and nothing for everyone else.<p>It&#x27;s frustrating because the people you tell about the apple say &quot;Well, you have provided no testable predictions, and no data that can be independently verified by everyone else in society. Clearly your apple doesn&#x27;t exist.&quot; But it does! You know it does! In fact, out of everything that constitutes reality, the floating apple is the one thing you&#x27;re <i>most</i> sure of. Frustrated, you walk around thinking you&#x27;re crazy until one day someone says, &quot;Well, I don&#x27;t see an apple floating in front of you, but do you see the orange floating in front of me?&quot; Which, of course, you don&#x27;t.<p>Now replace &quot;apple&quot; with &quot;the fact that I am experiencing my own existence&quot;. It&#x27;s an element of reality that is only apparent to you on a personal level, and since it isn&#x27;t testable by other people, it is <i>not</i> a part of their reality, and thus does not exist as far as they are concerned. And thus it&#x27;s not science. Yet even though it&#x27;s not science, it is the one thing in life I am most certain of. My five senses could all be faked with advanced enough neural circuitry. I could be in an entirely simulated environment, with entirely simulated physics. So when I order things in probability of how likely they are to be an illusion, <i>experiencing existing</i> falls at the lowest probability. In fact, you could strip me of all my senses and put my brain in a vat, and as long as it&#x27;s running, I&#x27;m still experiencing existence.<p>If the idea bothers you that things might exist that are incapable of being verified consensually by society, look at this image of all the particle interactions (so far discovered): <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Elementary_particle_interactions.svg/2000px-Elementary_particle_interactions.svg.png" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;upload.wikimedia.org&#x2F;wikipedia&#x2F;commons&#x2F;thumb&#x2F;4&#x2F;4c&#x2F;Ele...</a><p>If you&#x27;ll notice, gluons &quot;hang on&quot; to the rest of the particles by merely one interaction. If this interaction was not present, as far as positivists are concerned, then gluons don&#x27;t exist. But that seems entirely unreasonable to me. I could imagine plenty of particles that could &quot;exist&quot; that simply don&#x27;t have an interaction with the ones in the standard model that constitute our reality.<p>Anyway, this is probably the most bizarre post I&#x27;ve ever written on HN, but hopefully what I&#x27;m trying to convey &quot;clicks&quot; for some people.
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jcfrei超过 10 年前
For me questions on the nature of consciousness have always been deeply connected to the question of identity. Specifically the following thought experiment: What if there was a machine that would read every atom of your body and recreate your body at a different location at a different time whilst destroying the original. Would the arising consciousness still be your own original consciousness or would it be a copy? What if we keep both, the original and the copy? Are there now two separate instances of your consciousness running?<p>I guess the only answer in line with Koch is yes. Consciousness emerges out of a complex system. And I might add that consciousness is not a continuously working &quot;state of mind&quot;. It fades in and out during our daily lives. The consciousness we had yesterday is lost today and replaced by a new one, which runs on a different chemical setting in your brain (albeit shares most of the memories of the previous one).<p>I think that while I can &quot;experience my own existence&quot;, this &quot;existence&quot; doesn&#x27;t always refer to the same consciousness - one moment to the next the underlying system might have changed marginally or even substantially (in the case of being based on an entirely new set of atoms, which just happens to be in the same configuration as before).
maebert超过 10 年前
TL;DR:<p>Christoph Koch says that 1) Make a really complex system. We can even measure how complex systems are! 2) ??? 3) Consciousness!<p>By the way, that&#x27;s not panpsychism, that&#x27;s emergentism, and for much better accounts of that read CD Broad or Jaekwon Kim.
nl超过 10 年前
The biggest neural network yet built was a 100 billion neuron simulation of the human brain[1]. That didn&#x27;t exhibit consciousness, but is considerably smaller than the 1 quadrillion (1 million billion) synapses a human brain has.<p>I&#x27;m unsure what the relationship between a synapse and a neuron is. There are claims[2] that a human brain has &quot;only&quot; 100 billion neurons itself.<p>Of course, it&#x27;s true that consciousness may emerge from the complexity of the connections rather than the raw count.<p>I&#x27;m unconvinced. It seems possible that whales (500 million neurons) have more complex brain networks than humans, and yet by some definitions they aren&#x27;t conscious.<p>Conversely, some argue that birds are conscious, and yet they have considerably smaller brains than some neural networks.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.izhikevich.org/human_brain_simulation/Blue_Brain.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.izhikevich.org&#x2F;human_brain_simulation&#x2F;Blue_Brain....</a><p>[2] <a href="http://www.quora.com/How-many-neurons-are-needed-to-create-a-conscious-entity" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.quora.com&#x2F;How-many-neurons-are-needed-to-create-a...</a>
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Taek超过 10 年前
When we think of consciousness, we normally associate with the brain. But according to the complexity theory, shouldn&#x27;t there also be consciousness in most of our organs? The liver is a massive network of cells that are in at least a moderate amount of communication, and yet I am not aware of its consciousness.<p>But perhaps it is conscious, just at a level that&#x27;s inaccessible to my brain, which is a nearly distinct structure with very minimal relative communication to the liver.<p>I also found it interesting that he denied the idea that America might be one larger consciousness. I&#x27;ve had multiple experiences on LSD which have suggested to me that as an aggregate humans are one larger organism with a single collective consciousness, that operates both at a slower speed and a higher overall awareness. (Most accessible in the 150-200ug range)<p>When you think about how individual neurons work, spraying neurotransmitters at each other to trigger responses from the next neuron, essentially passing information in a complex yet highly organized web, are humans that much different. The set of humans who design cities are different from the set of humans who manage government policies are different from the set of humans that try to go to space. Each human passes information to others in highly complex ways that form super organized macrostructures. It doesn&#x27;t seem to be that much of a stretch then to say that consciousness also arises from the interactions of the macrostructures in the same way consciousness arises from the interactions of all the parts of our brain.<p>And the internet would seem to be a massive facilitator of this. Because of the internet, the amount of communication I do per day is enormous, and my interactions happen at a global (though mostly English speaking) scale. I doubt communications of this scope and magnitude were available to humans even 20 years ago.
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brittonrt超过 10 年前
This brings me to an interesting thought experiment I struggle with:<p>Most likely most people here would agree that if you make an exact copy of a person&#x27;s brain, whilst leaving the original intact, it would be a new person, identical but divergent from the original. A new thread of consciousness by such definition.<p>But then, what if you destroy the original at the moment of copy? It would appear to the same.<p>But then, what if you replace each neuron one at a time over a period, maintaining the original network? This question is troubling because it brings into obvious doubt the integrity of our notion of consciousness. As it is in fact the case that we shed most of the atomic matter that constitutes us in a given year, we are clearly immaterial. Patterns.<p>So put plainly: should you copy your brain all at once, killing the original, are you a new person? But if you are: transitioning slowly piece by piece over time, which is what we observe in nature, this maintains the conscious strain? How are these different?<p>It&#x27;s obvious to me there is something fundamental here we are missing. I welcome any insights you all might have had in similar thought experiments.
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jostmey超过 10 年前
I failed to find anything concrete in Koch&#x27;s argument. Its funny because at some level he is right - there is this thing called consciousness, but even when the most rational people try to describe it they inevitably sound unscientific. I imagine that before Darwin everyone must have sounded crazy when they talked about biology. I guess the field of Neuroscience is still waiting for a revelation.
RevRal超过 10 年前
Also worth a read: <a href="http://kk.org/thetechnium/2008/10/evidence-of-a-g/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;kk.org&#x2F;thetechnium&#x2F;2008&#x2F;10&#x2F;evidence-of-a-g&#x2F;</a><p>Too much emphasis is usually placed on the &quot;consciousness&quot; part of general intelligence.
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Synaesthesia超过 10 年前
Having read and listened to Alan Watts I have become convinced that the self or ego or &quot;I&quot; as we commonly call it is a delusion, and a dangerous one at that. It leads to all kinds of confusions and contradictions.<p>It is this delusion that is the source of our pain and jealousy. We should realize that we are part of a greater whole, that our own existence is inseparable from the rest of the universe. We are all one. Cheesey.<p>Rather than say &quot;I think therefore I exist&quot;, I prefer the simpler, &quot;thought exists&quot;
BasDirks超过 10 年前
This requires a leap of faith, usually not an indicator of good science, but it&#x27;s not unimaginable. One could argue that his terms are ambiguous or otherwise ill-defined, but what if this kind of research could be the starting point for such definitions?
ccozan超过 10 年前
He has also a book about it: <a href="http://www.amazon.de/The-Quest-Consciousness-Neurobiological-Approach/dp/1936221047" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.de&#x2F;The-Quest-Consciousness-Neurobiological...</a><p>I have read it half way, a lot of information there.
officialjunk超过 10 年前
The initial basis that electrons just instrinsically have charge isn&#x27;t proven. Infact there is a proof of why electrons have quantized charge (by Dirac), but it requires that magnetic monopoles exist, which haven&#x27;t been observed.
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sebastianconcpt超过 10 年前
That theory is not even close to point in the right direction on research.<p>Consciousness is <i>not</i> computation.<p>An do <i>not</i> just emerge from complexity. If it would, then the ammount of quantum information and complexity in any tropical thunderstorm would make it a supergenius entity. And is not (or prove me wrong).<p>Consciousness is also <i>not</i> mind. Mind is more like the sum of intelligence. Consciousness something else, more fundamental. Only quantum biology could be interesting on researching this.
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3beard超过 10 年前
The idea you can magically &quot;generate&quot; consciousness by running an algorithm is really silly superstition.
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dominotw超过 10 年前
Are we discussing <i>consciousness</i> everyday ?<p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8515361" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8515361</a>