TE
科技回声
首页24小时热榜最新最佳问答展示工作
GitHubTwitter
首页

科技回声

基于 Next.js 构建的科技新闻平台,提供全球科技新闻和讨论内容。

GitHubTwitter

首页

首页最新最佳问答展示工作

资源链接

HackerNews API原版 HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 科技回声. 版权所有。

Delegative Democracy – a scalable voting model

137 点作者 bdr超过 10 年前

29 条评论

astigsen超过 10 年前
Sortition[0] (selection of decision makers by lottery to get a group that is representative the population as whole) seems to me to be a much more interesting model. That was how the original Athenian democracy worked, and there has been several proposals to do this in a modern version.<p>I can recommend reading this proposal: <a href="http://www.context.org/iclib/ic11/calnbach/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.context.org&#x2F;iclib&#x2F;ic11&#x2F;calnbach&#x2F;</a><p>The clear benefit of this approach is that it would be a much simpler and more transparent process, with far less opportunity for the emergence of career politicians and corruption. People would also feel that they were far closer to the democratic process, when they were represented by others just like themselves, and the actual decision makers may be enticed to make better decisions when they are ordinary people that will have to live with the result of their choices afterwards.<p>[0] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Sortition</a>
评论 #8564992 未加载
评论 #8565270 未加载
评论 #8565231 未加载
haberman超过 10 年前
Right now, the problem of &quot;Representative democracy simply doesn&#x27;t scale&quot; worries me a whole lot less than &quot;the politicization [and polarization] of absolutely everything&quot;: <a href="http://www.vox.com/2014/11/1/7136343/gamergate-and-the-politicization-of-absolutely-everything" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vox.com&#x2F;2014&#x2F;11&#x2F;1&#x2F;7136343&#x2F;gamergate-and-the-polit...</a><p>I worry that letting people delegate their vote to their favorite outspoken political ideologue would make things even worse, because it would give those people real and direct power. Imagine Rush Limbaugh having the power to vote on behalf of millions of people.
评论 #8565361 未加载
评论 #8565038 未加载
评论 #8565957 未加载
评论 #8565208 未加载
baddox超过 10 年前
I don&#x27;t get it. Right now, an ostensibly fair and educated person could tweet his or her vote recommendations, and people could choose to vote according to those recommendations. Presumably a lot of voting is already motivated by trusted recommendations (even if it&#x27;s just party lines).
评论 #8565241 未加载
ljd超过 10 年前
This is exactly what we are doing over at PlaceAVote.com [0].<p>We are running 50 congressmen in 2016 on this platform.<p>Often times, it&#x27;s called Liquid Democracy.<p>[0] <a href="http://placeavote.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;placeavote.com</a>
chton超过 10 年前
How would this work with a case like foreign policy? Since everybody needs to able to participate, all the information related to a matter at hand needs to be made public. This is not always a good idea, especially when relating to diplomacy with other nations that don&#x27;t follow this model, or to military intervention. It would essentially become impossible to hide anything from your enemies.
评论 #8564880 未加载
azov超过 10 年前
<i>&gt; Someone with power, like an employer, could pressure people into handing over their votes.</i><p>This is absolutely what&#x27;s going to happen if such system is implemented.<p>Appearing to delegate one way, but having their votes counted another way? Seriously? It is way too complicated for an average voter. Even if you implement some sort of plausible deniability scheme (so that aforesaid someone can&#x27;t just login with your credentials and set it up the way they want) - imagine explaining plausible deniability to a 90-years-old grandma or some uneducated farm worker, or a drug addict...<p>Elections are rigged this way even in countries with supposedly secret votes: bad guys might ask you to prove your vote by, say, snapping a picture of &quot;correctly&quot; filled ballot alongside your ID, but even that is not necessary - enough people will do what someone with power tells them to on a vague threat &quot;if you try to fool us we will find out&quot;, or because it&#x27;s a &quot;patriotic&quot; thing to do, or simply because they are told to and don&#x27;t know better.<p>Not to mention that a huge number of people just couldn&#x27;t care less. Half of population simply don&#x27;t show up at the polls. How many of them will simply sell their right to vote for a token sum of money?<p>The current system is bad in many ways [1], but this proposal is even worse - way too much potential for abuse.<p>[1] Some reasons why - <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;First-past-the-post_voting</a>
评论 #8565755 未加载
评论 #8565885 未加载
评论 #8565980 未加载
评论 #8566061 未加载
mooneater超过 10 年前
I think Delegative Democracy has lots of promise, and <i>if done right</i> may the the ideal form.<p>But it is very much still pervertable, and the devil is in the details as always.<p>It would be nice to see a thorough analysis of the ways DD can fail, and mitigations. Andrew hinted as some (including privacy and coercion) but most discussions are this are light on critique.<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegative_democracy" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Delegative_democracy</a>
JDDunn9超过 10 年前
Sampled democracy is a much better solution. Replace Congress with 1,000 randomly sampled citizens. That&#x27;s the only way to get true representation.
评论 #8566124 未加载
评论 #8566086 未加载
评论 #8566139 未加载
higherpurpose超过 10 年前
I think this is pretty much the German Pirate Party&#x27;s &quot;Liquid Democracy&quot; internal voting model.<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiquidFeedback" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;LiquidFeedback</a>
评论 #8564998 未加载
评论 #8564576 未加载
mladenkovacevic超过 10 年前
Does anyone know of any software products that use this model at their core?
评论 #8565460 未加载
评论 #8574877 未加载
评论 #8564681 未加载
评论 #8565925 未加载
评论 #8564754 未加载
dllthomas超过 10 年前
I&#x27;ve been thinking something along the lines of &quot;legislature by jury&quot; might be a better way of tackling propositions. Currently, I&#x27;m asked to make decisions about a bunch of issues that I don&#x27;t know very much about. I can spend a lot of time researching them (and I usually do), or I can not vote (I do often triage a couple), or I can vote no if I don&#x27;t understand it (or don&#x27;t understand why the full time legislators can&#x27;t just do it)... but regardless, it&#x27;s a lot of time and effort and I imagine my vote is more or less lost in the sea of people who have paid less attention, and so much comes down to how effective the advertising, and I&#x27;m not confident that &quot;stronger arguments in the set of arguments that can be understood in 5 minutes by the average voter&quot; is a very good proxy for truth.<p>On the other hand, I do have some faith my my fellow citizen. Ask a group of us to set aside some time, do some research, sit down with some others, and make the best decision we can... and it wouldn&#x27;t surprise me if we did a better job than either the legislature (not having to constantly think about how X will play with Y in the next election) or the broader mass of voters (having the time to focus on one particular issue, and knowing we have the responsibility of having our voice matter).<p>Oh, and pay us a high rate for our time. It would still be cheaper than running a campaign.
revscat超过 10 年前
This looks like an interesting mechanism for fixing the moderator problem on Reddit. It would take a couple of cycles to get working rules in place, but it looks promising.
Lerc超过 10 年前
I had long decided that this was what I would focus on if I were going to be someone who did the start-up thing (I&#x27;m not. Mental illness is not compatible with doing a start up).<p>Rather Than governmental Democracy. Have a system where people can communicate information and ideas to large non-governmental entities.<p>Run a tree of delegates who feed information based upon its quality up to a higher level. Anyone may listen to anyone and speak to anyone but you can also choose to ignore anyone. You choose delegates for each individual case by picking someone receptive to your comment. People higher up the tree will generally only listen to people they know and trust.<p>This system would provide a useful middle ground to the current situation that people find themselves in when they need to communicate. Their main point of contact are automated systems or de-facto automated humans following processes. To get action on some significant issues, you need to win the publicity lottery and have you case become virally popular to the point where someone who can actually help makes contact.<p>It isn&#x27;t as ambitious as running a government, but would serve a real need. As an example of the sort of thing where this may help, there have been numerous instances of Obvious Malware on the Google Play store that have managed to acquire a significant number of downloads. When these instances have been noticed and appear on reddit &#x2F;r&#x2F;android, they are swiftly removed from the store. I&#x27;m sure similar instances have happened where a company has taken the action they needed to take only after the problem has reached the front page of HN. Rather than having to make a big public noise (which only really works for a few), people should have an avenue to get information where it is needed.<p>As a business model I would aim to have companies pay to have their top tiers of the tree managed by full-time staff.
humanrebar超过 10 年前
Isn&#x27;t this basically the way the electoral college works, at least on paper?<p>Wouldn&#x27;t it be subject to the same limitations of the electoral college, that future laws could restrict how delegates vote based on popular election results, etc.?
评论 #8564825 未加载
jawns超过 10 年前
I came up with almost exactly this idea several years ago -- I called it augmented representative democracy.<p>I figured that software programmers would immediately latch onto the concept, because they are familiar with the concept of inheritance. You elect a legislator to vote on your behalf, and in many situations that legislator&#x27;s vote is the same as your own, yet you retain the right to cast your own vote on any given issue.<p>But there are several objections that I could not overcome:<p>1) In our free, open, representative-style government, each legislator&#x27;s voting record is a matter of public record, but each individual citizen&#x27;s voting record is confidential. If we were to switch to augmented representative democracy, the question arises: Do we make each citizen&#x27;s voting record public or private? Both options come with potential problems. For instance, if all votes are private, we lose out on transparency, and anonymity tends to embolden people to make some pretty nasty choices. (Exhibit A: Any online forum.) But if all votes are public, it could invite retribution that the average citizen is not equipped to handle.<p>2) It&#x27;s hard enough to monitor roughly 535 federal legislators, to make sure they&#x27;re not taking bribes or kickbacks in exchange for their votes on particular pieces of legislation. Could you imagine if you had to instead monitor all 207.6 million eligible voters? True, it also becomes more difficult to influence a significant number of them through nefarious means. (Suppose you need to bribe five senators to tip the scale in your favor on a particular piece of legislation. So you offer them each $1 million. Now suppose every eligible voter got to weigh in. You&#x27;d need to bribe more than 10 million of them, assuming they all voted. And a $1 bribe isn&#x27;t nearly as attractive as a $1 million bribe.) But on bills where the vote is really, really close ... there is really no viable way to keep everybody honest.<p>3) A legislator&#x27;s workload is (or should be) a full-time job. It takes a lot of time to read through bills and understand them. It takes even more time to fully consider its broader implications and its potential unintended consequences. As part of that process, you&#x27;ll likely have to engage in discourse with fellow legislators; evaluate expert testimony; listen to the concerns of constituents, trade groups, lobbyists, and other organizations; and weigh the potential for the law to be challenged as unconstitutional. All of that takes time, and it&#x27;s unrealistic to expect every eligible voter to assume that responsibility for the purpose of voting on policy directly.<p>4) In practice, the cases in which this augmented representative democracy would result in a vote different from the legislator&#x27;s would be relatively few -- and yet there would be a whole lot of extra effort required to support the system. Basically, you would need an issue where the legislator&#x27;s vote is different than what the people who elected him would expect (and the legislator, if he wants to be re-elected, is only going to do that sparingly), and you would need a substantial turnout of people willing to overrule him. Considering how few people vote in general elections, that&#x27;s a tall order.<p>5) When you break it down, augmented representative democracy is really direct democracy, and not true representative democracy. And one objection to direct democracy -- take it for what it&#x27;s worth -- is that there&#x27;s a danger of mob-mentality policy decisions. If you look at some historic decisions, at least here in the U.S., the legislature was a bit ahead of the curve, compared with the population at large. So ... I guess the question is ... could direct democracy have derailed or delayed something like the civil rights legislation of the mid-20th century?
评论 #8565644 未加载
评论 #8565522 未加载
评论 #8567061 未加载
评论 #8565057 未加载
评论 #8565123 未加载
评论 #8567065 未加载
评论 #8566575 未加载
评论 #8565068 未加载
mojuba超过 10 年前
When I read the title my first thought was that it would be a majoritarian system without districts: everyone votes for one candidate from the list and the top N candidates get elected to parliament. This would solve two main problems:<p>* The problem of the majority &quot;choking&quot; the minority in each district in the ordinary majoritarian system<p>* The problem of partisanship tending towards mergers and eventually a dual-party equilibrium in the proportional electoral system<p>I&#x27;m pretty sure this idea is not new and even has a name. And I&#x27;m wondering what potential drawbacks such a system could have.
jiggy2011超过 10 年前
One of the biggest issues with this system would be that a rich company or individual could buy large blocks of votes on a particular issue.<p>Another might be that a delegate could present a popular set of views in public for the purposes of gaining a large number of delegate votes but then they could privately vote for their real beliefs which might be much more fringe, or perhaps they might change their mind close to the election.
评论 #8565025 未加载
评论 #8564944 未加载
评论 #8564945 未加载
webXL超过 10 年前
This sounds like it will create a marketplace for votes. But I might be OK with that, as long as bureaucracies can&#x27;t buy themselves more power, which happens from time to time with the current system via campaign contributions.<p>Besides, people already vote with their dollars in the private sector, which should be the first place to attempt to solve problems.
ams6110超过 10 年前
Seems completely corruptible by intimidation, bribery... I guess our current system is too, but not as easily.<p>Who writes the legislation? Do we still have representatives for that? What does the Senate do? Seems to require a massive re-write of the constitiution. A non-starter.
评论 #8565017 未加载
known超过 10 年前
I suggest <a href="http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recall_election" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Recall_election</a> should be simple&#x2F;swift&#x2F;inexpensive.
known超过 10 年前
We should use <a href="http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fmri" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Fmri</a> to select best politicians&#x2F;representatives
Lidador超过 10 年前
How about Qualitative Democracy?<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5cCyAqCkIw" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=X5cCyAqCkIw</a>
bmmayer1超过 10 年前
In this model, what would stop a politician from paying voters to delegate their votes to his supporters and thus directly buying the election?
评论 #8564717 未加载
评论 #8564748 未加载
评论 #8564782 未加载
评论 #8564950 未加载
评论 #8564707 未加载
grondilu超过 10 年前
Being able to give your vote means you&#x27;re able to sell it. I&#x27;m OK with this, but I&#x27;m pretty sure most people aren&#x27;t.
known超过 10 年前
&quot;Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man&#x27;s character, give him power&quot;--Abraham Lincoln
known超过 10 年前
Winston Churchill said: &quot;The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.&quot;
m0th87超过 10 年前
It&#x27;s almost-pagerank applied to democracy
评论 #8565928 未加载
Kinnard超过 10 年前
I&#x27;d love to see something like this explored on a blockchain.
评论 #8568593 未加载
jacques_chester超过 10 年前
Some version of this idea pops up every few months on HN. It&#x27;s a recurring trope of techno-utopianism.<p>Here&#x27;s what I said previously. <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2936365" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=2936365</a><p>I&#x27;d say something approximately as arrogantly today.
评论 #8566093 未加载