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The Open-Office Trap

153 点作者 ColinCochrane超过 10 年前

28 条评论

Immortalin超过 10 年前
This has been discussed before here <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7024488" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7024488</a> And here <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7832209" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=7832209</a>
mwfunk超过 10 年前
Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides.<p>For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following:<p>(1) How many years have you spent, total, working as a developer in an office environment every day?<p>(2) What percentage of those years were in open office layouts vs. sharing an office vs. having a private office?<p>(3) How many times a day, on average, do you interrupt other people with questions, vs. other people interrupting you?<p>I bring this up because I just really truly don&#x27;t get the occasional open office boosterism here. My current theory is that most of it comes from people who are still in the honeymoon phase of their career (like, the first few years after college when everything about the workplace still has some novelty to it).<p>I say this because it seems like many&#x2F;most of the people I talk to in person who like the open office idea have either literally never had a private office, or are relatively fresh out of college and get a job at Google (or a startup, or wherever), and they&#x27;re still so excited about everything that even the things that are hassles (like open office plans?) seem like they&#x27;re brimming with novelty.<p>Alternately, a lot of the people I talk to who like open offices tend to be those that are constantly pinging the people around them for help, but people rarely or never ping them for help. The only people I&#x27;ve known at my current company who want open offices (or even officemates) are these kinds of people. They don&#x27;t even realize that they have an &#x27;interruption deficit&#x27; (for lack of a better term) within their team, they just like the idea of everyone being more readily available to them and they don&#x27;t pay the price for it since they rarely get interrupted themselves.
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sprkyco超过 10 年前
I had one experience in an &quot;open office&quot; for approximately six months. It was terrible, constant shuffling of people to acquire the plethora of free food available. Nerf Gun wars and the constant click clack of ping pong approximately 30 ft. away. This article has offered me some vindication in my distaste for the &quot;open office&quot;.
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mrb超过 10 年前
Well, Facebook is building the world&#x27;s largest open bullpen office, with 2800 workers in 1 room(!) I wonder what they think of this research that shows open office plans being detrimental.<p><a href="http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/27/article-2331658-1A061409000005DC-174_964x374.jpg" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.dailymail.co.uk&#x2F;i&#x2F;pix&#x2F;2013&#x2F;05&#x2F;27&#x2F;article-2331658-1A...</a><p><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2584738/Now-THATS-open-plan-office-New-pictures-reveal-Facebooks-hacker-campus-house-10-000-workers-ONE-room.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dailymail.co.uk&#x2F;sciencetech&#x2F;article-2584738&#x2F;Now-T...</a>
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MCRed超过 10 年前
Here&#x27;s my argument against open office: I work in the dark.<p>I am sensitive to the flickering of fluorescent lights that most people cannot see. Most offices have standard fluorescent lights, often with cheap bulbs or ballasts that have not been changed since the building was built.<p>People also have different temperatures that they are comfortable at.<p>So, you really need at minimum four offices: Dark &amp; Cold Dark &amp; Warm Light &amp; Cold Light &amp; Warm<p>This ignores all the other problems with open offices and cubicle farms. Programmers really need to spread out. You need a whiteboard, preferably a large one for every two programmers. They need a desk big enough to support two or three monitors (if you&#x27;re only giving them one, you&#x27;re being penny wise and pound foolish, most likely.) Many programmers like to have books open for reference on the table. Or documents, etc.<p>Collaboaration is higher in my experience when people have their own offices or a few people per office. Focus is much higher.<p>Why kill productivity by %30 (a low estimate for the negative impact on my personal productivity) in order to save a fraction of an engineers salary?<p>I think it&#x27;s just bad management.<p>But the nice thing is, these people advertise that they have open floorpans, like they don&#x27;t even realize it&#x27;s a mistake, and that makes it easy to just say &quot;next&quot; when looking at jobs.
javaistheworst超过 10 年前
Most people in our large open plan office now wear large noise cancelling headphones in an attempt to drown out the gossip by the coffee machine, the colleague behind making a phone call with details far too personal to be sharing&#x2F;scaring with us, the drone of many printers and photocopiers, inane ringtones, someone laughing far too loudly, and the person who eats with their mouth open and smacks their lips. But otherwise, yeah, go open offices.
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pm90超过 10 年前
I work for a company whose entire office is on an open plan. Yes, even the CEO sits in a cubicle, as do all the senior management and stuff. And this is not a startup, mind you, its a mid size company.<p>Although it was kinda scary at first, I&#x27;ve adapted to it, and can see the practical benefits. Not having special offices, there is a sense of egalitarianism amongst the workers and none of the usual rat-race for better offices. As pointed out in another comment, most employees tend to use headphones when they need privacy. Since all the cubicles are the same, maintenance is a breeze.<p>I guess it depends on your temperament. If you really just like to be left alone when working, it won&#x27;t help. For me, having so many people around kinda prevents me from going drowsy, which used to happen a lot at my previous job.
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PythonicAlpha超过 10 年前
Not so new ... but it seems that some news has to be repeated on and on, that people learn.<p>In 1987 the book &quot;Peopleware&quot; already described the open office trap. But since, the idea keeps coming back in CEOs minds. I experienced it in a big corporation I was in. Decades after Peopleware, Open-Office was declared as &quot;big new invention from the US&quot; -- but it still was the same old fallacy.<p>The idea kept coming up always in new flavors and new &quot;inventions&quot; -- it seems that the idea is just to attractive for managers to be buried.<p>The problem is, that you have to invest in people to get best results -- and conventional economical thinking often times goes the opposite direction, how to cut costs.
jimktrains2超过 10 年前
Everyone seems to hate open offices, but since it&#x27;s all I&#x27;ve ever known, what&#x27;s the alternative? Everyone get a 4-walled office?
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interesting_att超过 10 年前
Most people in this thread are focusing on developer effectivenss as the sole criteria for office layout. But developer effectiveness != startup&#x27;s health.<p>There are three things many people in the discussion are forgetting:<p>1) Open office vs closed office is not a strict binary- I have noticed that employees in open office layouts are also the most lenient on WFH. I do not see as much leniency&#x2F;openness towards WFH in closed workplaces. So we have to compare Open Office with lots of WFH vs Closed Office with less WFH.<p>2) Open offices lead to higher employee retention- Open offices might lead to more interruptions, which might decrease developer effectiveness. However, I have also noticed that open offices lead to a greater social cohesion (since people are more likely to talk and form social bonds), which in turn leads to higher employee retention. It is hard to leave a company where all your friends are. Which would you prefer as a CEO: A company where developers are 20% more effective but 50% more likely to leave, or developers who are more likely to leave? In my experience, CEOs would prefer the latter, as it&#x27;s difficult to onboard new engineers.<p>3) Open offices engender more diverse ideas- Companies are also filled with product managers, designers, sales teams, marketing heads, customer and community support, finance, QA, and other teams. An open office will more likely lead to different teams talking to each other, which in turn creates a whole new batch of ideas. Startups rely on new ideas. New ideas often come from diverse group of people interacting.
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jondishotsky超过 10 年前
In San Francisco the pendulum has definitely swung back closer to center (the scale being all open to combination of open and private to private office intensive) with most startups occupying a hybrid solution with a myriad of breakout rooms and smaller meeting spaces &#x2F; soft seating.<p>The trend over the last decade began with die-hard open office plan fanpeople (breaking free of dads private office intensive historical), who quickly found that there was a lot of counterproductive distractions. From there as more traditional business starting adopting a start-up mentality to their office space, a balance had to be struck to ensure productivity.<p>Now the offices of Airbnb, Optimizely, Weebly, all have very strong distribution of open communal work area with solid guidelines from a cultural perspective on how to treat people in that environment, while also matching the open area with ample meeting space distributed evenly throughout their building.<p>With a more thoughtful approach than just open vs not open I think a balance can be readily created while also speaking to the culture of the company and genre of business it functions in (gaming, Saas, mobile, etc.).<p>For the record 1- 10 years 2- open (3.5 yrs) vs closed (6.5 yrs) 3- dozens but you learn the headphone rule which basically means (don&#x27;t bother me or text &#x2F; message me)
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state超过 10 年前
I can see how open offices are deeply unproductive for mid to large sized companies. But for a team of &lt; 10, I&#x27;ve generally found it to be pretty nice. Everyone has to learn to respect each other, but when you&#x27;re constantly working closely it&#x27;s convenient not to have any walls.<p>Does anyone else have experience with small teams working in open spaces?
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briandear超过 10 年前
Yet another argument work working remote. I have to admit, the Basecamp book Remote has completely sold me on remote. I&#x27;ve been remote for two years and never again would I want to work in any office other than my own.
davidmerriman超过 10 年前
The upside to the open office is that collaboration is effortless.<p>The downside is that collaboration can become a crutch. It will only hinder you when you need to do the kind of &quot;nose to the grindstone&quot; work that&#x27;s often needed.<p>To me, the ideal working scenario includes a private working space for each person and a public space for when collaboration is needed.
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trhway超过 10 年前
open office is very easy to get wrong, and thus it is usually the case. Myriad of wrong details immediately surface. For example, shades - any issue with it and people get the direct or once-reflected or significant part (they installed these modern fashionable semi-shades in our office which block too little) of sunlight right into your eyes as there are no cubicle walls to protect you.<p>Near the passageway the lights are not soft&#x2F;spread fluorescent, instead it is individual light bulbs, so forget sitting face toward that direction (which would be happily back to the sunlight mentioned above) as those bright dots of lights on your peripheral vision field are just like small suns.<p>Compare to those lightning problems the issues like highly collaborative excited guys running like herd of elephants from one workplace to another across the space is just nothing.
chuckcode超过 10 年前
Are there any studies that support productivity in an open office environment? The studies referenced in this article and others seem pretty negative overall. Certainly seems to be the trend at most companies these days that I&#x27;ve interacted with. Is it mainly just the cheaper option per square foot?
eitally超过 10 年前
I think one of the reasons you are seeing open offices as cost savings measures is because a lot of the companies considering it have absolutely no clue how to quantify the productivity of the people inhabiting the space. This is inherently a far worse problem.
mkehrt超过 10 年前
Having worked in a place with offices and now being in a place with an open plan, I&#x27;ll never go back.<p>There&#x27;s light, there&#x27;s space, there&#x27;s people around, I have a better idea of what people are working on, I learn by hearing people talk, it&#x27;s easy to move to a new desk if I want, the list goes on and on. It&#x27;s so much better for me mentally that there&#x27;s no comparison.<p>I think this is an area people can disagree reasonably; some people just like quiet and their own space. It&#x27;s really a matter of taste.<p>I also really think I&#x27;m less productive this way, but, hey, I care about my mental health more than my productivity. Of course, employers may want to balance this differently :-).
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aareet超过 10 年前
I like the open office layout most of the time because I find that learning and team bonding occurs very quickly in these setups.<p>An ideal environment for me would be an open office most of the time but with four walled offices available for me to occupy on a weekly reservation basis where I can get some coding work done when I need to focus. Something soundproofed maybe, to allow me to play music without needing headphones.<p>We had such a setup in one of the engineering buildings in university and I found that I really thrived when I was able to &quot;plug-out&quot; when I needed to focus and &quot;plug-in&quot; when I needed to work with other people - all while not having to wear headphones!
modoc超过 10 年前
The open&#x2F;closed office thing seems like chocolate vs. vanilla. Some people love one and hate the other. Some are okay with both. I&#x27;ve worked in both, at several companies.<p>I generally prefer open office plans. Clearly other people don&#x27;t. Everyone is different. There is no RIGHT answer, just RIGHT for you, or for your team...
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pixelcort超过 10 年前
I&#x27;m curious about private offices and regions. While it was possible to find companies in the Bay Area that offered private offices, I have yet to find any here in Tokyo. I&#x27;ve assumed it&#x27;s because real estate in Tokyo is more expensive, but what about other cities around the world?
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bwsewell超过 10 年前
I agree that the open office layout definitely hinders your ability to focus. My current company has an open office but about 9 empty offices that people can go into and focus if they need them. That has worked out well... people utilize those often... I certainly do.
pbreit超过 10 年前
As much ingenuity as there is in Silicon Valley I am amazed at how uninspiring office layouts are, particularly the near dominance of the &quot;open office&quot;.<p>Surely there are some companies trying out now &quot;contrarian&quot; layouts such as cubes, offices, bull-pens, etc?
ykumar6超过 10 年前
If you are getting disturbed in an open-office space, buy a set of good quality headphones. Also, we use Slack internally. Set your status to busy and no one is going to bother you.
runarb超过 10 年前
One thing I am wondering is how much of the perceived benefits of an open office are losses as the employees start to push back.<p>A couple of years ago I had the interesting opportunity to visit a new startups offices frequently. They employs was about 50% developers and 50% sales, where a lot of the sales was done on the phone. During a 1 year period their environment changed dramatically:<p>* They first started with only laptops and a clean desk policy (at the end of the work day one had to remove everything and take ones laptop home). They also wanted a paperless office.<p>* Soon one developer started using an active noise cancellation headphone. Some laugh at first, but during the next 3 months everyone got hold of a pair for them self.<p>* Many then moved away from the active noise cancellation headphones to full earmuffs originally meant for indoors firearms shooting.<p>* More and more of the developers demanded desktop computers, because thus cannot be easily moved so they would get a de facto fixed seat.<p>* To remove visual noise, some started wearing sunglasses and turned the brightness of their monitors to maximum, so they could only see their two monitors when they looked around.<p>* A couple of mount out one got hold of a bookshelf to store some computer parts. He sat in a corner and quickly made a third wall with his new bookshelf. Soon everyone else also demanded their own bookshelf to.<p>* People then started to erect walls using ad hook materials like plants, empty soda bootless, spear desks and rack servers that had become redundant when stuff got moved to the cloud.<p>* Some of the sale people started to hang out in small groups in their cars. There they could smoke cigarettes, talk loud on the phones and surround them self with printouts. They looked a lot happier doing so :)<p>* One developer quit citing all the noise as the only reason he left. Another refuses to come in to the office, and instead suggested that the company should rent an office for him at a startup incubator nearby (I believe they eventually made some kind of compromise where he would work 3 days from home and 2 days at the office).<p>* Eventually the company was bought by a larger entity, but things deteriorated further, so almost everyone eventually left. The owners had signed a particularly bad earn-out agreement that severely punished them if there were any decrease in revenue, so when everyone left they only got about 20% of what they would have gotten if the company had stayed afloat.<p>All in all I believe the end result could have been very different if they had had a better office layout. They sure at least did not save anything :)
DigitalSea超过 10 年前
I have primarily worked in open plan offices and even though a few studies have indicated that they are worse than closed office spaces, honestly sometimes some environments thrive with open planned spaces, others do not.<p>I am currently in my mid twenties and most people in my age bracket have not really experienced a non open plan office space, it is all they have ever known. I have worked at a couple of corporate companies that were not open plan and I noticed a few things.<p>People in non open plan offices tend to be more antisocial, this is more of an observation than a proven fact. I worked for a media company and instead of getting up and talking to a colleague in the office, people would just use Skype even if the person was a 10 second walk away. Teams tend to stick to themselves, people only associate with their own teams because non open plan offices do not encourage collaboration or a social aspect.<p>Having said that, I do find at times open plan offices can be distracting. One place I worked at had plush toys you could grab and put on your desk. If someone had a plush toy sitting on their desk, you knew not to disturb them. They didn&#x27;t always work though, people who felt as though they had an emergency that required your attention would still annoy you.<p>Not only that, but the same place also had a quiet space you could go work in, considering everyone had laptops, this was possible. We had beanbags, a dim lit part of the room with gentle lighting so the screens weren&#x27;t harsh on your eyes and all completely separate and somewhat soundproof from the hustle and bustle of the open office area.<p>Don&#x27;t get me started on what happens when someone new starts and people try and find space, I call it the &quot;open office shuffle&quot; you are made to move along to make space for a new colleague, I am not saying that non open offices don&#x27;t have the same problem, but it is more distracting in an open office environment.<p>I think regardless of what kind of office setup you have, there are always going to be issues. Most people have only ever known one or the other. If you are used to your space, I can see how an open office could be a problem for you at first, but if you have only ever really experienced open offices, then you are probably aware and desensitised to all of the intricacies and issues with them.<p>My favourite aspect of an open space as a developer is I feel like I am more social with my work colleagues. I get to speak with people I probably wouldn&#x27;t speak with usually in a closed office environment. I can openly ask questions and have discussions in person without using Skype or Google Hangouts and when it comes to lunch, usually everyone eats together and pulls people away from their computers forcing them to go and eat, instead of at their desk.<p>One solution to quell the issue of open office dilemmas could be to have proper solutions in place; breakout rooms for people on a deadline who need to concentrate, company supplied noise cancelling headphones, rule of no eating at your desk (so people are not distracted by your lip smacking, chewing and smell of food), no phone calls at your desk (if you want to make a call, go to a quiet part of the building or outside) and finally if you are sick, stay home and work if you can, otherwise rest.
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vacri超过 10 年前
The regular classroom, not the &#x27;open classroom&#x27;, is the analogue of the open office - a group of people with a common task, unseparated by walls. A private tutor would be the educational equivalent of a private office.<p>Additionally, &#x27;open-office&#x27; to me means OpenOffice, and while I can accept that it doesn&#x27;t to everyone, <i>be consistent</i>. It&#x27;s one of the rules of good journalism. The hyphen in the heading is not used in the article. Likewise, we have &#x27;nineteen-fifties&#x27; versus &#x27;1997&#x27;. The ironic bit about spelling out &#x27;nineteen-fifties&#x27; in a non-conventional, inconsistent manner... is the phrase in the article immediately following it... &lt;&#x2F;oldmanrant&gt;
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the_cat_kittles超过 10 年前
just based on the strongly divergent opinions, maybe this falls into the category of &quot;divisive yet inconsequential&quot;, like emacs vs vim or brace placement?
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