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Speaking While Female

144 点作者 mattybrennan超过 10 年前

19 条评论

sosuke超过 10 年前
&quot;When female executives spoke more than their peers, both men and women punished them with 14 percent lower ratings.&quot;<p>I&#x27;ve seen similar comments before and even going as far as saying women were harder on women than men when moving up in a career. It&#x27;s deeper and more complex than men versus women. I&#x27;ve heard my share of anecdotal stories from women who say the same thing, women are their harshest critique and most difficult challenge. It seems daunting, how do you even begin to change that.<p>&quot;He announced to the writers that he was instituting a no-interruption rule while anyone — male or female — was pitching.&quot;<p>That is excellent, and sad, that we have to go back to grade school etiquette to let people find a voice. It&#x27;s true though, if a team member isn&#x27;t trusted to have a voice they shouldn&#x27;t be a part of the conversation. If they are a part of the conversation they should have the respect of the rest of the team enough for them to shut up and listen, then respond. Spirit sticks!
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nostromo超过 10 年前
I worry that we&#x27;re now viewing all of society&#x27;s interactions through a prism of demographics and privilege. The prevailing cultural narrative is now that your demographic is your destiny. Too much success is granted to privilege and too much failure is blamed on society.<p>In my formative years, the rule for proper behavior seemed very simple: treat everyone the same, no matter their demographics or background. Now it seems there is a different ruleset for every demographic group. It all seems very retrograde and divisive.
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pervycreeper超过 10 年前
A little meta-observation: across HN discussions of topics like these, I notice over and over, the same commenters posting abundantly, vociferously, and stridently in support of what I might loosely term the pro-social-engineering side of the debate. I worry that this might falsely create an impression of consensus when there is in fact none, especially considering the potential social penalties for voicing dissent.<p>There also seems to be, for males, a certain prestige to espousing this type of ideology, and it seems to increasingly be being used as a form of social signalling (not in the least because it is oppressive to males not occupying the very highest social strata, incurring a real cost for them, hence being a somewhat honest signal).<p>Not sure how these two phenomena interact.
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300bps超过 10 年前
On its face, it is obvious that there are differences between males and females at all age groups. I think a core issue is when we try to pretend like males and females are the same.<p>In male dominated workplaces, women find it difficult to adapt to how men do things.<p>In female dominated schools, boys find it difficult to adapt to how girls do things. When 98.1% of pre-school and kindergarten teachers are female it&#x27;s no surprise that boys are disciplined more often, disciplined more harshly and test poorer on reading and other academic achievement measures than girls. Elementary school as a whole isn&#x27;t much better with 90% of teachers being female. The first 6 years of each boy&#x27;s academic life is spent trying to adapt him to how girls behave and how girls learn.<p>Failing to adapt in such a manner leads to punishment and recommendations of holding him back until he is as mature as his younger female peers despite his academic ability.
nmeofthestate超过 10 年前
This is interesting - I&#x27;ve noticed that sometimes when I&#x27;m with some women colleagues in a social setting, I&#x27;ll be completely ignored when making a comment (and of course, I get slightly butthurt by the experience). I wonder if this is on some way related to the problem outlined in the article - I&#x27;m being a pushy interrupting man, but because I&#x27;m in the minority, I can get frozen out for a change. Then again, maybe† it&#x27;s a &#x27;person&#x27; thing rather than a &#x27;gender&#x27; thing.<p>†probably
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jwmerrill超过 10 年前
It&#x27;s pretty common that in any given group, the subset of people who have good ideas and the subset of people who are comfortable dominating a group conversation are not entirely the same.<p>One strategy that I&#x27;ve found is sometimes helpful that recognizes this fact is to start group decision making by having everyone write ideas down independently on sticky notes for, say, 5 minutes. This means every person present ends up with a physical representation of the fact that they have ideas, sitting in front of them on the table.<p>Then, in a second phase, you can put them on a board and organize them, evaluate them, vote on them, etc. Since the ideas are now sticky notes on a board, they can be evaluated (more) independently of the person who articulated them.<p>The first time I participated in something like this, it felt like Kindergarten, and I didn&#x27;t really appreciate it. But after some practice, I&#x27;ve come to appreciate that it gives every member of a group the chance to contribute ideas, without having to simultaneously finesse the holding-the-floor game.
rmc超过 10 年前
There are anecdotes of trans men (female to male transsexuals) noticing this. They are the same person mostly and do the same thing, yet they get treated much better.<p>There was one trans man who is a scientist and has published under female and male names. Someone, who didn&#x27;t know, remarked that he was much better than his sister.
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hueving超过 10 年前
Unfortunately this seems like a bootstrapping issue now. If women are viewed differently for speaking up, it&#x27;s because people aren&#x27;t used to women speaking up. :(
forrestthewoods超过 10 年前
I&#x27;d love to see these discussions recorded and more objectively graded. I can not fathom a room full of people in a story meeting that isn&#x27;t over flowing with interruptions and shot down ideas.<p>Now I&#x27;m not saying that these issues aren&#x27;t real. Or that women don&#x27;t run into issues that men don&#x27;t have or have with less frequency. What I am saying is that these tales are anecdotal and we need more objective assessments if we have any hope of making any improvements.
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JulianMorrison超过 10 年前
This is why it&#x27;s important to have things like affirmative action - and in fact to scale that right down to informal conversations. Your experience of simple obvious facts is <i>lying to you</i>. You&#x27;ll think a woman is taking more than her fare share of time when a numeric time measurement would show her being sidelined (as well as interrupted, ignored, and poached from). So you need to swallow your feelings of indignation and your naive realism, and measure.
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strickjb9超过 10 年前
My theory is that gender inequality (less women than men, or vice versa) will cause the minority gender to have less of a say.<p>It seems supported by the article&#x27;s last example:<p>&quot;Professor Burris and his colleagues studied a credit union where women made up 74 percent of supervisors and 84 percent of front-line employees. Sure enough, when women spoke up there, they were more likely to be heard THAN men.&quot;
o0-0o超过 10 年前
Speaking as a man, I would prefer that we use the term woman. As in, &quot;Speaking as a Woman&quot;. The term female is without species. Female giraffe? Female water buffalo? Female human!
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Jimmy超过 10 年前
This really doesn&#x27;t match my experience. Women at my workplace aren&#x27;t afraid to speak up at all. It helps that about half of our middle management roles are occupied by women.
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lists超过 10 年前
I&#x27;ve seen this go down in a critical theory graduate seminar where all three of the women in the seminar would routinely be opposed&#x2F;interrupted by their male peers to the point that they just had to call it out.
evo_9超过 10 年前
Maybe we need to create conference rooms where everyone is in closed off little rooms and everyone speaks anonymously? Otherwise, I don&#x27;t know how we easily combat this seemingly deep-rooted bias.
dominotw超过 10 年前
Whenever I read anything like this I always wonder where does the society end and individual begin? Is such a distinction necessary or even valid?
Shorel超过 10 年前
I think this &#x27;please hold the baton in order to speak&#x27; thing will benefit nerds and other quiet people, not only women.
sighsigh超过 10 年前
There was this one time I was watched a whole bunch of old media agitprop reciting various tropes on how things should be and when I did what TV told me to do, people responded negatively! It doesn&#x27;t matter if those people were also exposed to the same trope and became skeptical of it based on their own experience... or if my imitation of the trope was ham fisted... I&#x27;M THE SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE HERE. How dare others have opinions of how my favorite trope should work!<p>TV would never lie to me :^(
brador超过 10 年前
Wait. Why did the women allow the male to run with their idea? Why didn&#x27;t they continue and run with it themselves? Are we supposed to sit patiently watching the gears turn until person A thinks of the idea themselves?<p>It&#x27;s a meeting. Speak up, run with ideas, contribute. If you&#x27;re gonna be mousey you&#x27;re gonna get run over. Male or female.
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