Screw motivation, what you need is discipline

551 点作者 lukasLansky超过 10 年前

49 条评论

This seems to me to be a bit like saying "screw hammers, what you need are screwdrivers."There's a brilliant talk by John Cleese that floats around HN every 6 months or so on how to be creative; if you haven't seen it yet, and you're interested in such a topic, please please please watch it:<a href="http://vimeo.com/89936101" rel="nofollow">http://vimeo.com/89936101</a>If you agree with Cleese's premise, I think it follows that what you need is motivation for the open mode (the blue sky, blank sheet of paper period), and discipline for the closed mode where you put your head down and get the work done.If you try to use discipline when your job is to daydream about possibilities (whether you realize it or not), you'll just steamroll over any insights, ideas, creative thoughts with a get-it-done attitude. Your forced march straight off a cliff will be legendary.But then, when you've got a good idea fleshed out and you just need to execute relatively mindlessly, working only when you feel motivated will be extremely counter productive, and in my mind, is where a lot of the "the last 20% takes 80% of the work" feeling comes from. You learn the true meaning of the phrase "work expands to fill the time allotted", and if you're bootstrapping by moonlighting, this is essentially infinite.I've been stung badly by both errors in my career, with the worst case for each leaving me burned out, disillusioned and seriously considering a career change.As an aside, I know you have to write authoritatively and with a simple premise to get good traffic to a blog, but reality is usually messy and complex, with a wealth of examples and counter examples. So often it feels like we end up with (and please forgive the straw man) a series of posts in quick succession bouncing around the blogosphere like "getting the most out of your hammer" "hammers considered harmful" "screwdrivers as hammer replacements" "hammer techniques for dealing with legacy screws" "full tool belt carpentry drowning us in complexity". And which is right? All of them, and none of them, at the same time.

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visakanv超过 10 年前

I have been thinking, reading and writing about motivation / discipline / procrastination / akrasia for years now. I'm always looking for really good material on the subject. Unfortunately for some strange reason, most of the posts I've seen that get to the front page of Hacker News are woefully oversimplistic.Even discipline is something that requires some sort of motivation to cultivate. It is something that you have to want to do, and getting yourself to want to do something isn't (in my opinion) nearly as trivial as a lot of people pretend it is.So screw motivation, screw discipline, what you need is a comprehensive, holistic solution that encompasses almost everything– that's why it's so difficult to change your life.1- You need to figure out your expectancy of accomplishing tasks. Discipline won't help you if you bite off more than you can chew.2- You need to figure out what's valuable to you. There's not much sense in getting disciplined at doing something you hate. PG wrote in one of his essays- paulgraham.com/love.html, I believe, where he talks about a doctor who became a doctor because she was so focused and disciplined– despite the fact that she never actually loved medicine.3– You need to engineer your environment + choose the right peers. This is way more than half the battle, and it also involves taking more drastic action than a lot of people are comfortable with.4- You need to chop up your tasks into things that have nearly-immediate feedback, because otherwise hyperbolic discounting makes things seem irrelevant and unimportant to us (especially bad if you have ADHD).5- You need to have a vested interest in doing all of the above. That means having some sort of reason or motive... which you might also call "motivation."TL;DR:Motivation / discipline / getting-stuff-done is a lot more complicated than "screw X, do Y".PS:"Screw X, do Y" seems to be a rhetoric device writers use when want to drum up strong feelings in people, dividing people into Camp X and Camp Y. Once you learn to see it, it actually gets rather boring and underwhelming. If you skip all the rhetoric, what the writer is saying is to develop habits. "Start small", that's it.Would've been more interesting to read a post about the specific development of habits. Because, often you'll find, you end up needing some motivation to getting around to changing your habits, too.

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jacquesm超过 10 年前

This is probably the best post to hit HN all month. It's a thing that I notice over and over again, the ability to execute and persevere is strongly correlated with individuals that show (self)discipline. The ability to get out of bed (even when you don't want to) to work real hard (even when faced with a hundred or more distractions, or on something that you may not even like) and the ability to keep a long term goal in the cross hairs even when the going gets tough has 'discipline' written all over it.And over time that translates into success. (For sure people will think of it as achieved 'overnight' but don't let that bother you.)Motivation is something that gets mistaken by many for discipline, but in fact motivation is what makes you go downhill faster, discipline is what gets you uphill and most of the times you'll be going uphill.

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axanoeychron超过 10 年前

I completely agree with this article. I would like to share a story of my own journey in this.For a long time I had wanted to lose some weight and to remove some bad habits. It dawned on me that I could eliminate the habit altogether by scaling back to extreme levels. For example, I completely stopped eating sugary foods such as chocolate for 8 months. I stopped buying coffee from coffee shops every day. I replaced my meals with crazy simple meals such as rice, tamago kake gohan, potatos, eggs and vegetables. It is surprisingly easier to just cut something out of your life and then add things back as necessary.It occurred to me if you can do this, you can do anything. You're replacing daily motivation - which can be depleted (ego depletion) - with a unwavering commitment everyday - to eat simple things or forego things you did not even think twice about before. You just don't do X. There is no way for you to self justify any more.It is surprising how after a while, you do not really even miss the daily coffee or chocolate because you feel happy that you were disciplined enough to give it up. You're strong.In my case, my journey cross fertilised another goal: to cut down on expenses. It is shocking how much money we all spend for very little benefit!I am sure someone will reply saying 'life is for living' and all that. The question is, are they strong enough to do the same?

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hf超过 10 年前

Ah, but what is discipline? Shifting the vocabulary burden around doesn't accomplish much. Discipline easily translates to will power (to do even in the face of adverse circumstances).But haven't we learned recently to consider will power a finite resource? Something that cannot be switched on at will arbitrarily[0]?The author himself escapes this accusation only by the skin of his teeth in the next-to-last paragraph:<pre><code> How do you cultivate discipline? By building habits – [...] </code></pre> Habit. This word, comparatively unprepossessing as it may sound, sits really at the core of the discourse[1].Whenever my thoughts stray to punishing myself for lack of discipline, I try to remember to leave that martial outlook towards life to the Spartans[2] and reflect peacefully on my habits instead.[0] Except, tongue-in-cheek, if you add sugar.[1] Lest I leave an opening: It already is in Covey's seminal 1989 'Seven Habits', <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Habits_of_Highly_Effective_People" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Habits_of_Highly_Eff...</a>[2] In this way, trying to force discipline may easily lead to results that are as devastating as those that the author foresees for motivational strategies.

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jokoon超过 10 年前

I disagree.Discipline is learned. You need something that structures and builds your discipline.You need a minimum amount of purpose that comes from outside. You can't learn discipline by yourself, it needs to be encouraged and taught.It's usually the role of society to put people into a position of productivity and personal progress. It's very tricky. Sometimes it just doesn't work because people just can't see how their inspiration could bring value to society, often because society is not set to recognize certain domains of work. That's a major source of stagnation.The author talks like individuals work alone for personal achievement. Nobody works for personal goals. Everyone works in a societal context.Discipline is another word for a very structured habit in a society of productivity. Procrastination is just caused by lack of insight and unbalanced processes, so it's usually a plain lack of communication, management or motivation.Discipline is just civilization regulating habits to create motivation out of thin air. Without a minimum amount of motivation, discipline won't happen.

ebiester超过 10 年前

Did you ever notice that nobody ever talks about how to cultivate disciplne? If it wee as easy as "just go do it" than everyone would.The latest analogy of discipline is of a muscle. Do more and it gets bigger, right? Not exactly. While true in some aspect, it leads to bad choices on later decisions you make, at least in creative work.Three ways to improve discipline:1. Develop a mindful meditation practice. It will produce more awareness, which in my experience helps me get started and work through to the edge of where I am making bad decisions, and recognize if I'm bored or actually tired and adjust accordingly. You will know if it helps you within a few weeks.2. Develop a choice minimal lifestyle. Arbitrary choices seemingly come from the same pool as discipline. Where possible, turn choices into a habit. "I start at 9 because I start at 9' not because I choose to start at 9." It seems odd but it works.3. Closely related, excersise will increase your mental endurance, which is as good as discipline in many cases. Diet also increased it -- while a quick glycogen hit can help for 15 minutes, I have found great benefit to dropping sugar and simple carbohydrates out of my diet while working. It's worth seeing if it works for you.

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drawkbox超过 10 年前

Being a professional is knowing how to get into a high quality productive mode regularly and consistently.It might mean doing things you don't want to currently do at that time but it is fueled by long term goals over short term goals.That said, part of that process is knowing where to target your motivation. Creativity can take motivation and that does play a role in design and developing products.

reinhardt超过 10 年前

As someone struggling with motivation even more than the average first world person, this hit right at home. Lacking the motivation to cook, do the dishes or the laundry is one thing. Lacking the will power to do generally "fun" stuff like going outside, hanging out with friends, dating, creativity is another.Hitting the gym is one of the few activities I still pursue with a relative consistency but wouldn't be there without the minimal self-discipline required to get my butt of my chair or bed and go even when I don't feel like it. In fact that's the hardest part; huffing and puffing for the next hour or so is easy in comparison.

bsmith超过 10 年前

Wow, this hits so close to home for me. I have intentionally been trying to cultivate better habits to underpin my own efforts to become more disciplined and effective, and in fact, I wouldn't have even been awake yet[1] to see this on HN if I hadn't been taking steps in that direction already.From what I've observed, the most successful/effective/<insert positive adjective here> humans of the present and past (and presumably, the future as well) have been know for the rigor of their habits and schedules[2]. I'm curious to know what steps some of my fellow HNers have taken to cultivate better habits/routines for themselves.I'll leave you with a quote from the legendary artist Chuck Close:“Inspiration is for amateurs — the rest of us just show up and get to work.”1. It's before 7am CST, and I've been awake for almost two hours: <a href="https://twitter.com/thisisbrians/status/561486866914869248" rel="nofollow">https://twitter.com/thisisbrians/status/561486866914869248</a>2. This list is just of 'creatives' (whatever that means), but you get the idea: <a href="https://podio.com/site/creative-routines" rel="nofollow">https://podio.com/site/creative-routines</a>

mr_olive超过 10 年前

I second the OP. The "emotional" motivation has brought me quite far in my life. I always enjoyed learning. I got into programming because it was easily triggering the "reward circuits" in my brain. But as life follows, there are more and more things that need to be done, but require quite some mental effort to start.So I decided it is time for a paradigm shift. I would rather do things I consider worth doing, instead of doing those that my brain finds attractive and immediately rewarding. I am following this paradigm for a few months now, and can confirm that satisfaction coming when the job is finished is truly rewarding.Related reading: "The obstacle is the way", by Ryan Holiday. A very concise introduction to stoicism philosophy. The life approach presented by the author has many common points with those of OP.<a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18668059-the-obstacle-is-the-way" rel="nofollow">https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18668059-the-obstacle-is...</a>

andrewchambers超过 10 年前

Thanks for this, I needed to read something like this. I seriously burn out on ideas halfway through execution because I rely too much on motivation, but lack the required discipline.

jonsen超过 10 年前

Be sure to read to the end and notice that habits are what you need. Those unconscious self perpetuating mechanisms that actually drives most things.

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Mobiu5超过 10 年前

The "problem" is framed to support the author's sentiments about discipline. "Motivation vs discipline" is not a useful description of the problem at all ("x vs y" arguments seldom are). In my experience, people who frame the problem in this way are accustomed to doing what other people want them to do. They get depressed and unmotivated and wonder why they can't "make themselves" do things. So they decide to misuse the idea of discipline to complete their transformation into an automaton! Try this instead: Do whatever YOU want to do. Find what motivates you and pursue it. It really is that simple.

iopq超过 10 年前

I forced myself to go to a job I hated. I lasted two months. Each day I spent more and more time reading shit on my phone in the bathroom. My breaks got longer and longer. When they started to call me out on this I just quit.Just discipline they said!

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dsjoerg超过 10 年前

This article gets some important things backwards in order to take on its overconfident alpha dog tone.Notably absent is how goals are chosen. Certainly some goals are better than others? And won't we be more motivated to pursue good goals and less motivated to pursue bad goals? And then mustn't we pay attention to a lack of motivation as the sign that we've chosen our goals poorly?That said, I agree that discipline is important because even when you've chosen good goals, there will be hard, boring work required to achieve them.

daliwali超过 10 年前

I find that I can force myself to do a task that I extremely dislike, that is discipline. But an important prerequisite is motivation.Case in point: I could force myself to improve upon a real-time bidding algorithm, resulting in more winning bids and targeted advertisements to appear on a largely captive and passive audience. Perhaps aspects of the bidding system could be improved to use less CPU cycles, memory, saving cost on the infrastructure to run it. I could get into the finer details of the time-complexity of every operation.But why should I be expending my effort, a part of my lifetime, on helping to sell something people don't need? To the benefit of big corporate brands while they pay me a pittance of their enormous profits? A major problem with this "screw motivation" philosophy is that it encourages more mindless work in favor of the status quo. The quintessential codemonkey churning out code as if that is its purpose to follow orders from above. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Eichmanns" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Eichmanns</a>Another misconception the author has is that someone has to be in the right emotional state to be motivated to do something, to which I reply emphatically FUCK NO. Things don't just get done out of an emotional urge to do things. I am not always feeling enthusiastic about my side projects but I am highly motivated to do them even if it involves dry reading of technical specs. With lots of discipline and little motivation I could plod through the boring parts and forget about what I was trying to do (and this is what I feel most schools optimize for).

jeffreyrogers超过 10 年前

Heuristic: The people who talk most about motivation have it the least.I'm quite accomplished by an reasonable standard in at least a few fields (academics, athletics, hopefully programming skill), and I haven't concerned myself with motivation since my early years of high school. Thinking in terms of motivation seems to me to be a solution to an ill-posed problem. Rather than asking, "how can I get motivated?" you should be wondering, how can I find something to work for so that I don't need motivation. Once I started focusing my attention on things I was good at and that were intrinsically rewarding, I found that I didn't need to force myself to do things that I "should" do. Instead I was doing things I wanted to do, and that also were beneficial to my long term goals.This wasn't all positive however, in athletics it created some conflict with my teammates, since their outlook was so outcome focused (we have to win, we have to get our times down to such and such a number, etc.), while mine was much more process focused (let's figure out how we can practice effectively, let's acknowledge that this was a bad practice and try to see how we can improve it in the future, etc.).

amjaeger超过 10 年前

This author has obviously never had to deal with ADHD... If you replace work with going to the gym, discipline says "go to the gym" but regardless of discipline you cannot lift the 300 lb weight." Likewise, discipline can get me to sit at my desk, but it alone cannot make me do the work. It is not physically possible. There really does need to be something else. Motivation, incentive etc.

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neuronic超过 10 年前

I don't know other people's experiences so this is all just my subjective view.I am so sick of all the bulls* posted on social media. Places like r/getmotivated or Facebook sites with daily quotes about motivation... Imagine a head shot of a marble statue of Napoleon Bonaparte, dark background and white floating text with a nice font that reads "If you wish to be a success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing. - Napoleon"It does literally nothing except to incite a state of mind that is more temporary than cigarette smoke fading into the air.Discipline (+ coffee?) is the only thing that reliably brings you anywhere. I am a grad student with multiple jobs and looking at stupid pictures or videos to do my work is not even remotely helping me. What helps me is managing my time such that I can sleep more than 4-5 hours a night. I have difficulty with that and no "motivational app/ website/ media" will truly help me with that struggle. I am not doing the jobs next to grad school because I enjoy being stressed... I don't have a choice.

ZenoArrow超过 10 年前

I agree completely that discipline is the key to building good habits, and after you have a set of good habits maintaining them is relatively easy.However, motivation is a little more important than the author is making out, and that's in setting an initial direction. Why would you be disciplined if you don't know what you want?Let motivation tell you what you want, and discipline let you get there.

neals超过 10 年前

I disciplined myself by hiring an intern to come and work at my home office 3 days a week. This required me to get up early and work.

AnthonBerg超过 10 年前

G.D D.MN this is so well written:"I do not consider self-inflicted episodes of hypomania the optimal driver of human activity. A thymic compensation via depressive episodes is inevitable, since the human brain will not tolerate abuse indefinitely. There are stops and safety valves. There are hormonal hangovers."

KedarMhaswade超过 10 年前

Incidentally, I am reading Cal Newport's "So Good ..." and the thoughts in this article resonate with some of those expressed in Cal's book. Half way through the book right now, and I can say that it is an unusual advice made to a society that harps the passion hypothesis. An interesting thing is on Amazon, the book that allegedly started/fueled the passion hypothesis (What Color is your Parachute?) gets 5 stars from 62% of the reviews, whereas "So Good ..." gets 5 stars from 56% of the reviews!If you are born and brought up in a setup where passion hypothesis is predominant, the advice "passion is rare and is a side-effect of mastery/hard-work" and "skill trumps passion" comes as an eye-opener.

hashtree超过 10 年前

Daily Rituals (book) which covers the work habits of ~160 famous writers, artists, philosophers, scientists, and mathematicians. Nearly every single one had a strict schedule to force work into specific time slots rather than letting inspiration strike, they tended to be morning people, and they tended to work shorter days but worked everyday. While still anecdotal, an interesting read on how many great minds spent their work days; nearly each one seemed to follow this same notion that you favor discipline over motivation.<a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15799151-daily-rituals" rel="nofollow">https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15799151-daily-rituals</a>

fndrplayer13超过 10 年前

I really enjoyed this read, and I think the author has a very valid point. I spent the first portion of my college time for example very much in the "I'll wait to feel motivated" camp and had not so great results. I eventually transitioned into the "I need to do stuff right away to be successful" state of mind and have been there ever since. Honestly I think I'd pin most of the successes I've had since then on that world view. These days I actually love being an engineer and look forward to taking care of many of my daily tasks -- be it work and chores.Speaking of which, I should probably clean the house. lol.

velco超过 10 年前

Motivation is the goal. Discipline is the means.

j45超过 10 年前

Love the focus on discipline. Most of us cringe or struggle with the idea that discipline will somehow constrain or cause us pain, but it's really come down to one thing for me to remember.Always build my ability to build discipline and all other habits can be improved or developed because I have discipline.Discipline creates freedom from things by doing what is needed to be done in the short term for a long term.Wisdom is to know that discipline is the master skill to develop, whether it's the discipline to be creative (and for how long), and the discipline to power through the things that need doing, serves or transfers as skills.

calinet6超过 10 年前

As many have said, it is more complex.But there are two great insights here:1. Productivity is a system, not a sequence. Many things are interrelated and motivation is often generated by simple completion of tasks.2. Motivation without other parts of that system may be insufficient to be productive.Personally, I've found lack of productivity or motivation to come from unclear or disorganized states, and systems like GTD go a long way to clear that up. When you frame this inflammatory article in terms of discipline just being systems like GTD or just lists that work, it makes some sense.But mostly, it says a lot of words that seem to be angry at abstract concepts.

AnonJ超过 10 年前

Basically true. Glad to see that it's still something from oneself(self-discipline) instead of anything imposed by the outside world. However there's one thing that I can't really agree with:> Trying to drum up enthusiasm for fundamentally dull and soul crushing activities is literally a form of deliberate psychological self-harm, a voluntary insanity: “I AM SO PASSIONATE ABOUT THESE SPREADSHEETS, I CAN’T WAIT TO FILL OUT THE EQUATION FOR FUTURE VALUE OF ANNUITY, I LOVE MY JOB SOOO MUCH!”Nonsense. "Cutting the link between feelings and actions" is to prevent the short-term irrational and counterproductive effects brought by fickle emotions. That's totally right. However, if you don't have a fundamental, long-term passion for what you're doing, then you'll definitely have serious troubles. If the author doesn't like filling spreadsheets, that's fine. I don't like it either. However he cannot plainly declare that everybody who says he/she likes it to be insane. This is quite hilarious.Of course, "interest" and “passion” in most cases are actually brought about by consistent devotion and hard work in the first place. Then a positive feedback loop is formed. That’s true. You can’t expect most people to “love” what he/she does without he/she mastering it and deriving joy from it first. However if you just choronically feel your job is dull and “soul crushing", then you should probably seriously consider seeking something else to do. That is totally different from admitting that cake is more seducive than broccoli, but just rationally and correctly deciding to eat broccoli for the sake of health. In the latter case, the problem is that our currently technology pretty much doesn't allow you to enjoy a cake-flavored broccoli. So you've got no rational choice but to eat broccoli. However in the case of jobs, you're a free person. If you really can't like a job even after you've learned to do it systematically and with discipline, just change one which you have more passion for. There's definitely no problem to it.I generally understand what the author is trying to emphasize here. I am probably just being a bit picky and feel he didn’t employ the appropriate words/example in this place.

bbody超过 10 年前

Very good article. I'd like to add that motivational posters and nice one-liners from famous people are nice for a nice fuzzy feeling but ultimately doesn't do that much for me.

amativos超过 10 年前

This is very true. I realized this a few weeks ago myself. I've seen a video on youtube where a guy talks about discipline being greater than motivation - <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnMp-d5pKs" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnMp-d5pKs</a>I like the idea when he talks about 'becoming a machine', that attitude can help in many situations.

kazinator超过 10 年前

If you want to accomplish something, what you need is discipline and motivation to be one and the same, or at least so interrelated that they are inseparable.To others it looks like you have discipline, because they can't imagine anyone working so hard at something. But to you, it's just what you love.

brosky117超过 10 年前

"Because real life in the real world occasionally requires people do things that nobody in their right mind can be massively enthusiastic about, 'motivation' runs into the insurmountable obstacle of trying to elicit enthusiasm for things that objectively do not merit it."

eoincathal超过 10 年前

This book has been a big help for me: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Flourishing-Maureen-Gaffney/dp/1844882721" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Flourishing-Maureen-Gaffney/dp/1844882...</a>A long read, but worth it and something I return to regularly.

Herodion超过 10 年前

Discipline is not really a conscious choice since you can enhance it through medication. So if you have the right makeup then you don't need motivation to do things while others can get roughly the same effect by taking Ritalin.

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doctorstupid超过 10 年前

Let actions determine mood, and not rely on mood to determine one's actions.

twirkman超过 10 年前

A simple todo list is still the best way to get things done. Writing things down helps you commit, and crossing them off is unusually rewarding.Try making a list today before psychoanalyzing yourself.

pnathan超过 10 年前

Motivation gets you interested and starting, discipline keeps you going and improving, then motivation provides reasons to not quit.note that this is not reducible, there's a unbreakable link.

Bahamut超过 10 年前

There is a popular refrain touted by the Marine Corps: "Motivated & dedicated". Both are equally important in accomplishing a task, especially difficult ones.

bipple超过 10 年前

Remain loyal to reinventing the wheel, if you can stay on that track to fuck the moon and go for the portal, and keep your motivation, you'll be discipline

wedesoft超过 10 年前

Yes, to delay gratification is a fundamental human skill.

ThrustVectoring超过 10 年前

The short version of the advice: build an identity as a disciplined and conscientious person, and use that to motivate you.This is both useful and dangerous. Useful, because it makes doing work feel like accomplishing goals. Dangerous, because it makes doing work feel like accomplishing goals.If what you care about is being diligent, then any work will fill in. An hour of sending out job applications feels just as "disciplined" if you send out three instead of twenty.Make sure your work is actually accomplishing your real goals, and then put the work in.

zo1超过 10 年前

I got motivated and working before I finished the last quarter of the article. I'll edit this post with more details later; off to work.

jkot超过 10 年前

Discipline costs energy to maintain. What you need is effortless routine.

naringas超过 10 年前

and what about inspiration?

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matdrewin超过 10 年前

Motivation is what gets you started. Discipline is what keeps you going.

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dimovich超过 10 年前

Discipline is the protocol, action is the data.

dschiptsov超过 10 年前

Motivation != bullshitting yourself.Motivations is a feeling of a dissonance, of a lack of quality. It is a feel of abused "artistic sense".Read some classic about Motorcycle Maintenance.)btw, "artistic sense" works the same way as "hard-wired empathy" does - via evolved "machinery" in a brain.