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The Life of a PHP Developer

73 点作者 growthape超过 10 年前

19 条评论

metaphorm超过 10 年前
this article didn&#x27;t even address by far the biggest issue with PHP: there is a massive and divided community that is split between real professionals (the guys who build Facebook, for example) and total amateurs who don&#x27;t know what they&#x27;re doing.<p>critiques centered on the weaknesses of the language itself are missing the most important problem with PHP as a technology ecosystem. the technically rigorous, experienced, professional part of the PHP ecosystem is a minority and the signal:noise ratio is horrifically bad.<p>Do you know what happens if you put up an ad on a job board looking for PHP developers? You get flooded with hundreds of amateurs or lackluster freelancers (many of whom have no idea how far away from &quot;good&quot; they are) and a very small amount of responses from good developers.<p>Do you know what happens if you google search technical questions about how to do stuff in PHP? Flooded with blogposts and forum threads filled with actively harmful information instructing you on the wrong way to do things, without having any idea about why its wrong.<p>Other languages don&#x27;t suffer from these problems to nearly the same degree. There are issues in the Python, Ruby, Javascript, Perl, Java, C#, etc. communities as well. Those problems are not nearly as intractable and damaging though. The communities of other languages have better signal:noise ratios and its really evident as soon as you try to do any hiring. It makes a difference.
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yetanotheracc超过 10 年前
Perhaps you would not have these problems if you accepted web development as a blue-collar trade that it is.<p>When you treat learning some tech stack as a pinnacle of intellectual achievement, your sense of identity becomes involved and you get this kind of nonsense.
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igorgue超过 10 年前
<p><pre><code> It’s not 2004 anymore </code></pre> His argument is that PHP is better now that is not 2004, but also, you could say the same about PHP usage on big popular sites.<p>I&#x27;m tired of the argument of &quot;every big site is written on php&quot; cause it&#x27;s not 2004 anymore and if those sites were to start today they&#x27;d probably be written on other languages.<p>He fails to mention that there is actually a fairly big amount of people that are horrible programmers and use, love, and preach PHP, they&#x27;re not using Symfony, or reading Hacker News, or writing tests, still they&#x27;re professional programmers.
trustfundbaby超过 10 年前
I did PHP for many years before moving to Ruby and Rails and never looked back ... doing Ruby made me a much much better software Engineer and gave me a better understanding of Computer Science as a whole. Its not impossible to get this with PHP, but the fact is that the low barrier to entry actually works against it. There are way more amateurs screwing around and writing really bad code with PHP than you&#x27;d find doing Ruby, Python and (more recently) Javascript (wasn&#x27;t always the case though)<p>PHP just has bad PR. It unfortunate, but its just the reality of the PHP ecosystem, and if you choose to program mainly in it, then its something that you have to accept and work hard to overcome.<p>Weirdly enough, I find quite a few startups&#x2F;tech companies that I wouldn&#x27;t expect to use PHP actually do. Pocket. Slack. for example then the usual suspects like Facebook and Automattic (wordpress guys). From my experience following Ruby on Rails from the beginning till now ... I think the these using PHP are doing the ecosystem a massive disservice by not blogging more extensively about the awesome things they&#x27;re doing with it and getting more word out about the right way to do things. Thats the only way I see the perception of PHP changing.
jon_kuperman超过 10 年前
Hey all, author here. You all are amazing and took down my website! If it&#x27;s not loading for you, I put the post in a gist which can be found here: <a href="https://gist.github.com/jkup/dcaa56f1d066409d17f5" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gist.github.com&#x2F;jkup&#x2F;dcaa56f1d066409d17f5</a>
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krob超过 10 年前
What I hate the most about all these arguments is people always say that php people don&#x27;t know shit about computer science. C.S. is important, but it&#x27;s not what makes you a good programmer. Ultimately all systems have theory behind the underpinning technologies, but what makes a system powerful is how it&#x27;s engineered at scale, and how code is maintained at scale. A house is about making sure all materials to build it are strong enough via scientific measurements &amp; standards. You don&#x27;t need to be a rocket scientist to know that if you don&#x27;t use proper materials, everything falls apart. That is why if you write in langauges like php, they improve the C.S. part from the community, but also build frameworks which are the Software Engineering Technics encoded in documentation.<p>Ultimately, what makes people hate a language is how it engineers structures at scale, and ones which don&#x27;t force the hand, people hate. PHP has recently frowned apon writing massive codebases without frameworks, and when it is a framework, they expect people to take the time to document their frameworks to a point where the community can take over and improve that product. Writing lots of non-domain specific code is a sure-fire way to find haters all day long.<p>Almost all modern php now is very heavily leveraged in package management &amp; commonly used frameworks &amp; best practice software engineering principles in the underpinning glue to the code.
thoman23超过 10 年前
Hmm, OK, I&#x27;m guilty of having the biases and preconceptions that he&#x27;s describing. However, even after reading through his post and some of the articles he linked to, I didn&#x27;t see anything that really changed my mind.<p>Even knowing that there are smart people at Facebook and Twitter using PHP, I just can&#x27;t shake the connotations that those 3 letters have in my mind. I&#x27;ll try to keep an open mind, but lord it ain&#x27;t easy.
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sarciszewski超过 10 年前
On Twitter, I&#x27;m repeatedly ridiculed for writing PHP.<p><a href="https://twitter.com/voodooKobra/status/494466665883910144" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;voodooKobra&#x2F;status&#x2F;494466665883910144</a><p>This is a fairly typical response (usually from C enthusiasts):<p><pre><code> Me: &quot;Hey, I&#x27;m working on some project. Anyone see any vulns?&quot; Person: &quot;Yeah, I see a vuln: You&#x27;re using PHP.&quot; </code></pre> I don&#x27;t like language arguments. While there&#x27;s always value in contrasting language features and keeping your horizons ever-expanding, nothing productive comes from them. All it does is foster an environment that promotes Impostor Syndrome and insecurity. As others have said, they believe the people who engage in these &quot;my language&#x2F;framework is better than your language&quot; diatribes are acting on their own insecurity. If they are correct, it&#x27;s a vicious cycle that accomplishes nothing.<p>Better idea: Accept that no language is perfect, and if there isn&#x27;t a way to solve a specific problem (or the existing solution sucks), research and write a (better) solution. Even if it means sending patches to the PHP core (and having to deal with the toxic jerks on the mailing list). This is far more beneficial than arguing with people who don&#x27;t want to listen.<p>As PHP accelerates towards its version 7 release and cleans up a lot of the cruft from the 4.x and early 5.x days, a lot of the criticisms of PHP will cease to be applicable.<p>&quot;Those who can, do. Those who can&#x27;t, complain.&quot;<p>EDIT: If you&#x27;re going to downvote me, please at least tell me WHY you are.
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Raphmedia超过 10 年前
If you base your identity on the language of the day, you are going to have a bad time when things change.<p>I am a developer. I develop in multiple languages, using multiple frameworks, with different technologies, to fill different needs.<p>Why would I care which language I am using for a project? The syntax is different and so are the built-in tools, but in the end, you are doing the same things.
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datashovel超过 10 年前
&quot;There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses&quot; -- Bjarne Stroustrup
otterpro超过 10 年前
PHP had many positives: (1) killer apps like Wordpress and PHPmyadmin, (2) PHP apps are easy to install and run on most stock *nix system, and (3) bare-bone PHP runs fast, compared to Rails or other framework (which is not a fair comparison, though)<p>Unfortunately, PHP has failed in: (1) lack of leadership and the vision -- they need someone like DHH or Linus Torvalds or the support of a major corporation such as Google (HHVM from Facebook not withstanding) (2) PHP still suffers from the lack of respect from software engineers and developers, and faced the same fate of VB6 (which I&#x27;ve had fond memories of doing &quot;casual programming&quot;), (3) future of PHP looks grim, despite the upcoming release of PHP 7, with the exception of Hack and HHVM, but Hack is not PHP.
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bdcravens超过 10 年前
If validation is the problem, then remember that most developers aren&#x27;t on HN, and they aren&#x27;t building startup apps. Also, I can&#x27;t imagine a developer only knowing the one languages. Leverage other &quot;cool&quot; projects if you feel you really need some geek cred (Javascript MVC, CSS pre-processor like SASS or LESS, automate your builds using Chef, optimize developer experience using Vagrant, implement search using ElasticSearch, etc)<p>If all you&#x27;ve ever used was PHP and you haven&#x27;t grown into using the other amazing tools that are available in 2015 (remember, &quot;this isn&#x27;t 2004&quot;...) that&#x27;s the bigger issue.
not_a_test_user超过 10 年前
We use mostly PHP at work but lately I have been using my free time to learning Ruby because most good job offers around here ask for Rails knowledge.<p>I&#x27;m not saying there are no PHP job offers, there are, but they are mostly for maintaining old codebases that have none of the good features that modern PHP has. Or they are for web agency jobs that consist of mass producing cookie cutter web sites.<p>I think Laravel 5 looks very interesting but I feel I can&#x27;t afford to explore it because I need to learn Ruby if I want a better job.
Navarr超过 10 年前
He&#x27;s right though - most of the arguments about what PHP is lacking are outdated and obsolete by the massive community undertaking.<p>Most of the modern day arguments are just bikeshedding arguments. (Function names are inconsistent, etc.) which is, yes, stupid that we&#x27;ve managed to maintain mistakes for decades - in the end it doesn&#x27;t matter.<p>What matters is being able to get things done, and that&#x27;s something PHP developers are fantastic at - even if some of them output the worst code imaginable.
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rootlocus超过 10 年前
I think associating yourself to a technology to the point of &quot;end[ing] up in insular micro-communities&quot; is the wrong approach. People shouldn&#x27;t define themselves as developers based solely on one language (e.g. &quot;I&#x27;m a php [only] developer&quot;). I enjoy working with both low level and high level languages, with some more than with others, but they&#x27;re merely tools. And no tool is the best tool for every problem.
nercury超过 10 年前
We know why we chose a PHP for a project, how &quot;bad&quot; PHP is and can weight that against advantages it brings. We already know all the jokes and just do our jobs.<p>Also, I suspect some people do not get it when we say &quot;it is not 2004 anymore&quot;. It REALLY isn&#x27;t. We see and write this kind of code on daily basis:<p><a href="https://github.com/symfony/FrameworkBundle/blob/master/Command/ServerStatusCommand.php" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;symfony&#x2F;FrameworkBundle&#x2F;blob&#x2F;master&#x2F;Comma...</a><p>We do not deal with nightmare cases like this anymore: <a href="https://github.com/2b3ez/FileManager4TinyMCE/blob/master/tinymce/plugins/filemanager/dialog.php" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;2b3ez&#x2F;FileManager4TinyMCE&#x2F;blob&#x2F;master&#x2F;tin...</a><p>So, please do not pity us. We know what we use and why.
MarioSh超过 10 年前
Sometimes I really wonder, why everyone hates PHP? Sure, it&#x27;s not the best language around to do complex calculations but it&#x27;s very easy to write code there.
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Socketubs超过 10 年前
I cry. Sad guys are sad.
issa超过 10 年前
Hating PHP is like hating Taylor Swift: You can&#x27;t argue with numbers, and sometimes, despite resisting, you end up singing along.
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