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Show me the salary!

128 点作者 pauloteixeira大约 10 年前

34 条评论

fukupayme2大约 10 年前
A big problem here in London is the willingness of big firms, especially financial ones to pay market rate in all conditions. An example:<p>I work at an IB, doing Python&#x2F;Quant development. We are presented with two candidates to interview.<p>Candidate 1 is ok, has a year or two of Python but otherwise mostly Java background. Did so-so in the algo and numerical discussions, was ok in the problem solving categories. He was currently earning 75k and was asking for a 5k bump. HR were fine with this.<p>Candidate 2 was unbelievable, has authored and contributed to many open source Python libraries, was well known in the community, did very well in the questions, would have been an absolute asset to the team and business. He is currently earning 50k at a Django shop. HR rejected his application as hge asked for 70k, on the grounds that the jump was too big. Even though it was less than the overall pay for candidate 1.<p>Employers suck hard sometimes!
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Mister_Snuggles大约 10 年前
I&#x27;ve got a handful of general rules around salary that tell me not to apply for certain jobs:<p>- I don&#x27;t apply to jobs that don&#x27;t list a salary range. This is a red flag that tells me that the employer doesn&#x27;t have the budget to pay market rates and that applying and interviewing could be a colossal waste of time for both of us. I get that the employer may not be willing to pay what I want based on my experience, etc, but the salary range tells me if getting what I want is even possible.<p>- I also don&#x27;t apply for jobs that don&#x27;t list an annual salary. I get the vibe, rightly or wrongly, that when you only list a monthly salary you don&#x27;t expect to keep your new hire around very long.<p>- Jobs that are listed as &quot;xx months with possibility of extension&quot; are also right out. A job, for me anyway, represents a huge commitment and if the employer isn&#x27;t willing to make that same commitment then I&#x27;m not interested.
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BrentOzar大约 10 年前
As a small business owner who&#x27;s done a few successful casting calls, the problem with this article comes down to their first answer:<p>&gt; Yes, you have quantity, but what about quality? How much time will you spend sorting the wheat from the chaff? How much application spam will you have to review and dispose of? And of the relevant ones, how many under- and over-qualified candidates do you need to sift through because they lacked the vital piece of information that is a salary range?<p>It&#x27;s easy: filter the incoming candidates based on who you want to hire. Send your favorite candidates a simple email saying what you want to pay for that position, and ask if they&#x27;re still interested. Interview the ones that are. (This way, you&#x27;re not posting the salary number to the public, but you&#x27;re still filtering candidates quickly and respecting their time.)<p>If none of your favorite candidates are interested at your targeted price, there&#x27;s your answer. Either lower your standards and take one of the other applicants, or ask all of your favorite candidates what number it would take to get them interested. (No interviewing - you don&#x27;t have the right to take up their time until you can come up with the money - you&#x27;re just asking for the salary number they would need to even step into an interview.) When the numbers come back, that&#x27;s what it would take to hire your favorite candidates.
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alecco大约 10 年前
In my experience, if you are useful to the company where you are, job hopping is the only way to a meaningful salary increase or career change. Also, when you do a good job programming and are not an attention whore you become wall paper.<p>See previous discussion: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8940820" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8940820</a>
MikeTaylor大约 10 年前
This is simple. I won&#x27;t waste my time applying for a job that doesn&#x27;t even bother to tell me what they&#x27;re going to pay -- any more than I would buy a car without knowing its engine capacity, mileage, etc. The idea is idiotic.<p>So: the only people who will apply for jobs with no salary listed are the ones desperate for <i>any</i> job.<p>Are they the people you want to hire?
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pixelcort大约 10 年前
Would a solution to Yao&#x27;s Millionaires&#x27; problem help?<p><a href="http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yao%27s_Millionaires%27_Problem" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Yao%27s_Millionaires%27_Probl...</a><p>The candidate puts in the minimum they&#x27;re willing to take into one side of the solution, and the employer puts in the maximum. Both then securely find out if the minimum is less than the maximum, without revealing the two numbers to each other.<p>The socialist millionaire solution is used in OTR, but this solution seems to have not caught on yet.
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austenallred大约 10 年前
We don&#x27;t broadcast our salaries with our job listings because reality is how much we&#x27;re willing to pay varies candidate to candidate. Interviewing, for example, someone with seven years experience vs. fifteen (I&#x27;m simplifying what matters greatly for the sake of argument - years experience is the easiest thing to put a number to) and we would pay way more for one than the other.<p>Maybe that&#x27;s unfair, but I don&#x27;t think we&#x27;ve ever chosen not to hire someone because of the salary level they wanted.
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wallflower大约 10 年前
It is all about the employer maintaining the power in salary setting.<p>Think of airlines. In the handful of times, I&#x27;ve asked how much people have paid for their seat. I&#x27;ve gotten ranges of a couple hundred dollars in both directions for a cross-country flight. Some of it was when the ticket was bought. And I thought I was getting a deal on Priceline...<p>There are always disparities in salary. The most glaring and entrenched - being that of males and females of near equivalency being paid different amounts.<p>If all salaries were made public, you would have to equalize salaries to prevent the fomenting dissension.<p>This can be done at smaller organizations. For larger organizations (think Fortune 500), the higher-ups could not keep their larger salaries because a) they would not be able to justify them (as much) and b) their larger salaries may have been largely due to &#x27;taking a larger share of the pot&#x27;.
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collyw大约 10 年前
The culture of hiding salaries can only work in an employers interest. I can&#x27;t see situations where it would be in the interest of the worker (unless they are earning silly money and feel they need some kind of &quot;protection&quot;).
shanemhansen大约 10 年前
Here&#x27;s a little bit of a horror story of what happens when the reverse question (engineer&#x27;s current salary) is asked and answered honestly. Disclosure of current salary ultimately hurts both parties.<p>I was once offered a position by a certain well known Las Vegas based ecommerce company while I was living in Salt Lake and working in Park City. They asked my current salary and I told them (like a chump). When my offer finally came through it was for less than my current salary (ouch). I assumed this was a really weird way of telling me &quot;no&quot;, so I declined the offer.<p>I immediately got a call from their HR wondering what the problem was. When I informed them that I wasn&#x27;t going to move to Las Vegas and take a pay cut they dug in their heels and argued that their offer was really <i>more</i> than I was currently making since Las Vegas is so much cheaper than Park City (as I mentioned above, I never actually lived in Park City but that didn&#x27;t seem to dissuade them).<p>If I had responded to the &quot;how much do you make?&quot; question by telling them how much they needed to pay me then instead of wasting everyone&#x27;s time they could have terminated the interview process or even better, made their offer without being confused by irrelevant salary data.<p>At my most current job I told the recruiter right up front what my requirements were and told her I didn&#x27;t want to fly out for an in-person interview unless we agreed on ballpark numbers. She came back with an acceptable number (which I accepted when I later saw it on the offer letter) and nobody&#x27;s time was wasted. I also won&#x27;t be job hopping for a tiny pay bump any time soon. Win&#x2F;win.
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mallyvai大约 10 年前
This is exactly why we are launching the Offer Drive:<p><a href="http://offerletter.io/drive.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;offerletter.io&#x2F;drive.html</a> . In short - submit your offer and equity information, get back access to a statistical pool showing where you stand.<p>A few notes on this subject from my perspective as the founder of <a href="http://OfferLetter.io" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;OfferLetter.io</a> (we provide negotiation advice and career matchmaking to developers and other techies).<p>Companies also oftentimes just <i>don&#x27;t know</i> what someone is worth, and don&#x27;t want to publicly publish numbers that are too high or low for fear miscalibrating expectations w.r.t. large swaths of potential candidates.<p>0) If a company tries to play the, &quot;What do you make?&quot; game, it&#x27;s important to deflect, deflect, deflect and if they insist, simply state, &quot;I expect a competitive offer to be on the order of $X&quot;<p>1) Market rates are complicated. As I&#x27;ve written about before, the outcomes that people can see because of outsize startup exit scenarios means that their market rate can be <i>very very</i> high. Google doesn&#x27;t publish this kind of info because they <i>can and will match</i> even crazy startup exit numbers, but don&#x27;t broadcast this for fear of screwing up expectations.<p>2) At the end of the day it is contingent <i>on the individual</i> to define their own basis and see what places are willing to offer what compensation, and how much they are willing to budge. This is <i>how markets work</i>.<p>3) On a related note, oftentimes, companies will try and prohibit discussion of compensation by saying it&#x27;s confidential, or a trade secret. Confidentiality and wage secrecy requirements in the workplace are <i>illegal</i> under California law. The exact statue is here: <a href="http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB&amp;sectionNum=232" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;leginfo.legislature.ca.gov&#x2F;faces&#x2F;codes_displaySection...</a> As we have seen repeatedly, these kinds of requirements tend to disproportionately harm people from many kinds of non-privileged backgrounds.<p>And, under national labor legislation, companies cannot prohibit discussion within the workplace.
solve大约 10 年前
&quot;Resentment&quot;<p>Good call on that. Resentment is the #1 factor in practically everything in internal people dynamics. Poor managers and founders just don&#x27;t realize it yet.<p>This tends to be less bad in major cities than in small towns though. Young people, get out of the small town you&#x27;re living in.
hippich大约 10 年前
I spent quite a bunch of time on interviews with employers who promised to pay above market salary to end up with an offer 30% less than i am making.<p>Put another way - salary is big item in job description for me - amount employer ready to pay too often correlates with problems&#x2F;technologies&#x2F;colleagues&#x2F;innovations i am going to work with.<p>So naturally first question I always ask recruiter - how much. And naturally most of them shy away from answering it straight.<p>As a result I created job form[1] and, unless it is someone&#x27;s recommendation, or i had previous relationships with recruiter, I send all of them to this form to fill it first.<p>[1] <a href="https://e.l1t3.com/pavelkaroukin" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;e.l1t3.com&#x2F;pavelkaroukin</a>
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mgkimsal大约 10 年前
This one bugs me<p>&quot;Recruiter: “Why don’t you tell me how much you think you’re worth?”&quot;<p>Well... what I&#x27;m <i>worth</i> to a company depends a whole hell of a lot on how good they are operationally. Company A may be able to extract $500k of value per year from my skills. Company B may only be able to extract $80k of value from my skills. What am I &quot;worth&quot;? It&#x27;s largely dependent on the environment I&#x27;m operating in, and how good they are at organizing everyone&#x27;s skills to produce&#x2F;extract value.
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500and4大约 10 年前
I would argue that in London it&#x27;s the fact that talking about salaries is considered rather taboo in tech that perpetuates non-disclosure. I wrote a post about it a while ago: <a href="http://blog.zonino.co.uk/on-salaries-in-london-startups/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.zonino.co.uk&#x2F;on-salaries-in-london-startups&#x2F;</a>
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inthewoods大约 10 年前
My experience is it doesn&#x27;t matter what you post in the job description - you still have to wade through applications.<p>As for the article, I think the author lists a lot of real concerns that exist at companies - and then sort of dismisses them as if they are invalid because they aren&#x27;t ideal. I&#x27;m sorry - but companies aren&#x27;t ideal.<p>Let&#x27;s also look at the function of job postings - from my point of view, the goal is to get as many candidates into the pipeline as possible and then get them qualified. I want to minimize the number of filters whenever possible.<p>Finally, he doesn&#x27;t provide a lot of benefit from doing these actions aside from perhaps not having to wade through a lot of resumes - but as I mentioned above, I don&#x27;t think that turns out to be the case.
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imaginenore大约 10 年前
Every job spam email I get that has the salary listed gets my respect, and I immediately forward it to my friends and ex-coworkers (if the role fits).<p>To the interesting job spam I usually reply with the question of the salary range, and 95% of the time there&#x27;s no reply back.
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Dirlewanger大约 10 年前
And then there&#x27;s the unspeakables that companies wouldn&#x27;t tell someone like Jobbox: withholding salaries allows suppresses talk about it and makes it borderline-taboo to talk about in the workplace.<p>This is the status quo for many American companies unfortunately. It&#x27;s an unfortunate consequence of dealing with a highly individualistic society. <i>You</i> as a person are an asset and you always have to be selling yourself. Your previous salary is seen as leverage when it comes to finding a new job. Once you find one, you&#x27;ll most likely find that salary discussion is a very sore thumb with everyone in the workplace. I see it as competitive collaboration that&#x27;s gone cancerous.
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specialdragon大约 10 年前
My understanding of &#x27;competitive&#x27; salaries are that the employer doesn&#x27;t know what range they should be offering. The quickest method of resolving that is to phone them up and go, &quot;You&#x27;ve specified a competitive salary range, I&#x27;m looking for a salary of £X for that position, if you feel that&#x27;s sensible then I&#x27;ll forward my CV&quot;, at which point my CV is then updated to reflect the amount I just specified.<p>If I&#x27;m applying for a job it&#x27;s because what&#x27;s there sounds interesting, if the salary backs it up then brilliant. If the salary is poor then maybe I didn&#x27;t want to work there after all and that&#x27;s very much their loss.
MatthewWilkes大约 10 年前
I like it when they say the salary is £competitive. Presumably that&#x27;s in base36, in which case they&#x27;ve got loads of money.
amelius大约 10 年前
I wonder what happens if test-engineer Bob finds out that there is a new job-opening for a test-engineer in his company, with a salary that is significantly higher than his own current salary.
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shanemhansen大约 10 年前
I&#x27;m not too concerned with companies not listing salaries because I think a job posting isn&#x27;t actually a posting for a job. It&#x27;s really just a way to let me know that a company has certain needs. They may fill that position with a senior developer, or a junior developer. Quite often there is currently one person wearing many hats who needs to hand off responsibilities in one area.<p>However I&#x27;ve found I get the best results by stating my salary requirements up front.
Vinod_Chandra大约 10 年前
In India, We have launched a site to promote salary transparency!<p>KitnaDetiHai.in (coincidentally means the same as show me the money in Hindi)<p>The site has gone viral in top bschools in India.<p>The idea was born out of the thought, just for a simple mobile purchase or for a meal, we compare prices and reviews to get the best deal. Whereas for one year of blood and sweat, when HR says this is the best in the industry they are no accurate sites to refer to ask for a fairer deal.<p>How do I trust the HR words, when one of her prime KPI is also how much money she could save for the company while rolling an offer out.<p>I would be happy to hear feedback from you folks!<p>p.s. In Glassdoor I can post as CEO of Apple, there is no authentication and why the data is so inaccurate, whereas in KitnaDetiHai after initial search its a compulsory LinkedIn Login to search more and even after that Machine Learning Algorithm&#x27;s are used to identify outliers. If found so the user&#x27;s access is removed and he cannot be a part of community at all.<p>Another Incentive here for users to enter right salaries is, we will suggest jobs which 1. Match hiked up no&#x27;s from current salary. 2. Also fairly matching skills of the job against skills listed&#x2F;endorsed on LinkedIn.
brendangregg大约 10 年前
I&#x27;m sure these reasons happen, however, the most common reason recruiters don&#x27;t talk salary to me seems to be that they know it is below market, and want time to sell all the other benefits. I treat it as a warning sign of a very low salary.<p>It also often wastes everyone&#x27;s time. After going through multiple rounds of communication, the salary is finally revealed: often way too low, even after hearing about the benefits.<p>Other recruiters will talk salary early, and those jobs are usually the ones that pay well.<p>I don&#x27;t waste time (mine and theirs) talking to recruiters who don&#x27;t share salary information (expectations or ranges). There&#x27;s a major tech company that needed my expertise (systems performance), for whom I never got past the recruiters because they wouldn&#x27;t talk salary. (After several months, I don&#x27;t think they ever filled that role.)<p>This all doesn&#x27;t matter much to me now, as I&#x27;m at Netflix and very happy. Netflix does talk salary expectations.
xivzgrev大约 10 年前
I think a big reason people get into poker is Expectation of negotiation.<p>If employee talks first, the number can only go down.<p>If the employer talks first, the number can only go up.<p>It&#x27;s unfortunately wide spread. I wish we lived in a world where people saw a fair offer and accepted it without automatically asking for more (employee) less (employer). If something&#x27;s not fair then fine negotiate, but I think people negotiate even if an offer is fair to &quot;win&quot; or &quot;its expected&quot; or &quot;everyone else would&quot;. So employers come in below budget and employees are hesitant to give salary numbers.<p>Heres a good post on it:<p><a href="http://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/183/does-the-first-person-to-mention-a-number-in-a-salary-negotiation-lose" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;workplace.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;183&#x2F;does-the-fi...</a>
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S_A_P大约 10 年前
So I am in the early stages of starting a consulting business. Currently this business is just me, myself and I, but at some point I want to bring in and mentor junior people. I&#x27;ve kicked around a few ideas around salary and one of them is to tell them what I want to pay them first thing, up front. Hey, this job pays X dollars. If we move past that, then I will work to see if there is a skill&#x2F;personal fit. This is as yet unproven, but my thought is you can set expectations, get the haggling out of the way first and then try to end up on a positive note instead of trying to play nice and then play the salary game.
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gambiting大约 10 年前
I work in the games industry in the UK and if there is any greater secret than the games we work on, it&#x27;s definitely our salaries. NO ONE will even mention how much they make, and that&#x27;s because the industry pays much worse than anything else. I was even openly told in the interview that yeah, they know that this position pays 10k(GBP) less than a similar position anywhere else,but it&#x27;s the games industry so that&#x27;s what is it. And that&#x27;s with one of the largest games studios in the world. If I didn&#x27;t love what I do, I would have left ages ago.
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mwanamayi大约 10 年前
Like the point of view. I find that many companies really neglect corporate culture and feeling of belonging when it&#x27;s decisive for productivity. The salary example shows this well as instead of cooperating, it&#x27;s already about &quot;confrontation, strategy and often times disappointment at a very early stage with your employer. Probably why I&#x27;ve always had it hard with Corporate culture. Work has to be passionating, whatever the reason.
andrewstuart大约 10 年前
The salary isn&#x27;t a predefined amount that is a secret. It&#x27;s usually a broad range, negotiable to skills and experience. Usually jobseekers have an idea if their market value and can and do name the salary they re looking for. Often there&#x27;s some movement up or down to get a final deal in place.<p>So the entire premise that there is a defined salary and it&#x27;s being kept secret is flat out wrong.
mau_rs大约 10 年前
Totally disagree with the final conclusion. In a market where people (specially technical people) are in need and advertising inviting people to living on to the edge, makes Jr. Developers, Jr. Designers, Jr. Business person, think that they are more Senior than Junior. So trust me, they will apply cause they have nothing to loose.
endergen大约 10 年前
I don&#x27;t agree with the assertion that listing filters out candidates on the low end. I think many dillusuonal, overly ambitious, and financially desperate under qualified candidates apply hard for salaries way above their last&#x2F;current salary.
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serve_yay大约 10 年前
It could backfire - if I saw a salary stated on a job ad, I would consider it firm. So it it was too low I wouldn&#x27;t even consider applying, when perhaps they would have been willing to work something out with me if I did.
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dennisgorelik大约 10 年前
----<p><a href="http://jobbox.io/" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;jobbox.io&#x2F;</a><p>This webpage is not available<p>----<p>You should redirect users to <a href="https://www.jobbox.io/" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jobbox.io&#x2F;</a>
logicallee大约 10 年前
Guys, there are countries where the candidate is expected to state their salary and not the company. The thinking is that the candidate is the seller (i.e. receives cash) and the company is the buyer (i.e. pays cash)!! We can use an ISO99-standard car analogy here for their thinking:<p>Think of the candidate as the salesman of a car (themselves), and the employer as the buyer of the car, who wants to use it for something.<p>Then this actually makes perfect sense. Doesn&#x27;t the seller usually list their price rather than the buyer? (who keeps their range a secret, or even has a much wider range as they have a choice of cars.)<p>It would be like walking into an auto showroom and the seller (get your mind around this: in the analogy the job candidate is the car&#x2F;salesperson, but selling themselves rather than a car) asking the shopper to state how much the shopper is willing to pay (shopper = employer in this case, since employer is the one paying, and has a choice of &#x27;cars&#x27;). Or at least state a range. Shopper (=employer) don&#x27;t have to do it - you can ask what the cars are going for first.<p>Who is at more fault: if a car salesperson refuses to tell you what the cars are going for (job candidate doesn&#x27;t say how much he or she will work for) or if a buyer refuses to tell you what they have budgeted (the shopper doesn&#x27;t say how much they&#x27;re willing to pay, and just wants to see some cars.)<p>Like all ISO99 car analogies, it&#x27;s quite a good one, in this case because in fact the buyer and seller both do have a range, i.e. the buyer can consider different prices, and the seller can often be flexible within a single car.<p>Also there is another reason not to list salary ranges: absurdity. We can conceive of a buyer of a car, given certain circumstances such as a new well-paid job they <i>must</i> drive to or near, but being broke after a period of unemployment, considering everything from $500 to $50,000. It&#x27;s conceivable, depending on the terms involved, for this particular purchase (&quot;hire&quot;). But that is a range of two orders of magnitude.<p>Sound absurd? A one-person startup might hire someone from an intern salary all the way through six figures, even doing similar things (if not much has been built), depending on age, experience, whether any of the salary can be deferred, who they can find, etc..<p>You don&#x27;t need much imagination to realize that a cofounder salary range is: $0-$100K salary, 0%-50% equity.<p>With a little imagination, that range actually <i>widens</i> considerably, but I don&#x27;t want to make your brains explode. (With negative salaries or much higher than 50% effective equity, etc.)<p>It&#x27;s all on the table.<p>If you don&#x27;t want to interview for positions outside of your salary range, here&#x27;s a thought: 1) call up whoever posted the advertisement and tell them you don&#x27;t want to apply if it&#x27;s far outside of your salary range. tell them what it is - you don&#x27;t even have to identity yourself. if it&#x27;s outside their range they&#x27;ll tell you. 2) (I don&#x27;t really recommend this.) Send your CV (your car or house brochure) with a price range.<p>It&#x27;s somewhat rude, sure, but I guarantee it&#x27;s better than not letting 100 employers see your resume&#x2F;CV at all, because you&#x27;ve filtered them out based on a lack of listed salary and refuse to take even 5 seconds to drop an email with an attachment.<p>The line &quot;Expected salary: ___&quot; is guaranteed to filter out anyone whose budget is <i>less</i>. On the other hand, you might filter out people whose budgets are more or people who consider this very rude, and forward.
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