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Hyperloop Gets Test Track in California

145 点作者 benblodgett将近 10 年前

17 条评论

rmxt将近 10 年前
A 5-mile test track won&#x27;t be big enough to examine the biggest concerns: thermal and seismic. The alpha brochure linked to in the OP barely touches on the two. Here [1] is a better analysis&#x2F;take-down of what thermal issues such a long structure will encounter. (TL;DR: A 400-mile long continuous structure will need to accommodate 1000 feet of thermal movement over it&#x27;s length and lifetime.) Seismic is another beast: it requires a much more thorough examination than the cursory glance it was given in the alpha paper.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.leancrew.com&#x2F;all-this&#x2F;2013&#x2F;08&#x2F;hyperloop&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.leancrew.com&#x2F;all-this&#x2F;2013&#x2F;08&#x2F;hyperloop&#x2F;</a><p>Thermal effects on Maglev research: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lib.utexas.edu&#x2F;etd&#x2F;d&#x2F;2007&#x2F;kimh10315&#x2F;kimh10315.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lib.utexas.edu&#x2F;etd&#x2F;d&#x2F;2007&#x2F;kimh10315&#x2F;kimh10315.pd...</a><p>EDIT: Apologies for the negativity... I hope this reads as more of thoughtful criticism, rather than as being hypercritical.
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Animats将近 10 年前
They have a web site.[1] They claim to be hiring. They claim to have funding. The web site looks like someone loaded up the generic cool new startup template and stuck in some concept art in the indicated places. There&#x27;s no useful information about the technology or the business.<p>The big problem with this is not the technology. It&#x27;s land acquisition. As with high speed rail, you need a right of way that&#x27;s straight or has very large radius turns. There are sections of I-5 that are straight enough, but high-speed travel between Bakersfield and Tracy isn&#x27;t that useful. Tunnels can help, but are not cheap.<p>China is building high speed rail through urban areas on pylons. As with most elevated rail, the reality is much wider and more heavily built than the concept art. (China&#x27;s maglev is a one-off demo; China&#x27;s high speed rail system is huge.)<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;hyperlooptech.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;hyperlooptech.com&#x2F;</a>
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ChuckMcM将近 10 年前
Sigh<p><i>&quot;The 5-mile test track is estimated to cost about $100 million, which Hyperloop Transportation Technologies hopes to pay for with its initial public offering (IPO) later this year, according to Navigant&#x27;s blog.&quot;</i><p>Run away, run far far away. They might as well do a kickstarter. Seriously, what sort of &quot;business&quot; is a 5 mile test track?<p>Lets say you charged $25 for a &quot;5 minute ride on the hyperloop!&quot; and you got 8 people in it, and you had perfect efficiency, and you ran non-stop for 10 hrs a day, 7 days a week then $100M is 414 days. And that isn&#x27;t including the cost of running the ride in the first place. I guess I&#x27;ll find out why they think I should think about investing in their S-1 but for right now, I am totally not seeing it.
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sixQuarks将近 10 年前
When the US government literally loses track of $100 million in cash, no one blinks an eye. When a guy who has built an electric car company AND a space rocket company proposes a revolutionary transportation alternative and has people excited enough to spend $100 million on it, people go nuts. I can&#x27;t believe how small-minded some people are.
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huuu将近 10 年前
<p><pre><code> * Invent something totaly new * Test it on a small scale * Get a lot of negative comments on HN </code></pre> Com&#x27;on people. This might be the transportation of the future!
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geon将近 10 年前
&gt; The problem with traveling in an evacuated tube is, if you lose the vacuum in the tube, everybody in the tube will crash<p>Wouldn&#x27;t that be a &quot;crash&quot; into a gradually rising air preassure? Something like a smooth deacceleration.
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aetherson将近 10 年前
The biggest problem with this headline is that it suggests that the hyperloop is &quot;getting&quot; a test track. When the actual situation appears to be that the hyperloop is getting a plan for a test track that is heavily contingent on highly speculative funding.<p>If it actually had a test track, then most of the discussion in these comments could be obviated.
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Osmium将近 10 年前
Regardless of what you think of this specific project, I&#x27;m encouraged that people are still &#x27;Thinking Big&#x27;. Making the future happen is up to us!
coderjames将近 10 年前
I&#x27;m clearly missing something important because otherwise somebody would have built this already, but instead of using the fans for levitation as proposed, why not keep using the magnets?<p>I&#x27;m imagining a tube with (8?) magnets equally-spaced around the perimeter so that the carriage inside automatically stays centered in the tube. We already know how to toggle the magnets to produce forward motion (see maglev trains). Could still use the partial-vacuum to keep drag down. And you remove the single-point failure mechanisms of the fans on the carriage and minor misalignment of tube segments.
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hyperbovine将近 10 年前
&quot;If the position of the wall deviates from straightness by a few thousandths of an inch, you could crash ... if you lose the vacuum in the tube, everybody in the tube will crash ... the vehicle&#x27;s compressor ... can&#x27;t fail, or the pods will crash ... The 5-mile test track is estimated to cost about $100 million, which Hyperloop Transportation Technologies hopes to pay for with its initial public offering (IPO) later this year.&quot;<p>This article will one day be featured in a museum exhibit on laughably divorced-from-reality bubblethink.
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saosebastiao将近 10 年前
This is hard for me to do because 1) I probably respect Musk more than any living engineer, 2) I can&#x27;t stand the CHSRA and their incompetence, and 3) I&#x27;m arguing from my comparatively unsuccessful keyboard against someone who is in every way my superior when it comes to engineering and business, and I know I&#x27;m gonna be the one to look like a fool here. But I&#x27;m going to do it anyway and try as best as I can to avoid the middlebrow dismissal.<p>Hyperloop is a nerd dream and it doesn&#x27;t have a chance at <i>financial</i> success. The fundamental problem has nothing to do with the technology, which appears amazing <i>and</i> viable. If anyone can overcome the few nagging engineering issues, Musk and Co are the ones to do it. No, it has to do with not having a viable market plan, suffering from very common delusional assumptions in business models that have fucked over railroad capitalists for well over 2 centuries now, including three major railroad bubbles (Railway Mania as well as the Panics of 1893 and 1873). [1]<p>The faulty assumption is that the viability of the railroad hinges on the ability to go from major city to major city as fast as possible. This is only partially true. Of course you want to be as fast as possible, but the worst possible way to be as fast as possible is to eliminate stops in smaller cities and towns, which is exactly what Hyperloop is planning on doing. Those small towns usually end up being the most prominent drivers of revenue, overshadowing the large-city-to-large-city revenue by an order of magnitude. Even the CHSRA business plan shows that their revenue model does not depend heavily on the SF&lt;-&gt;LA passenger volume.<p>You can typically think of demand for travel in terms of cultural dependencies. I have a need for employment, therefore I travel to work. I have a need to visit family, therefore I travel to family. I have a need for tuna, therefore I travel to the wharf market. I have a need for a visa, therefore I travel to the embassy. These cultural dependencies result in a demand distribution for travel that roughly fits a power law profile. The demand for near travel (x &gt; 0) is exponentially greater than further travel (y &gt; x). It is not hard to speculate that the passenger miles travelled by Angelenos traveling to work outweighs the aggregate passenger miles travelled between Los Angeles to San Francisco on any given day...LA County&#x27;s Metropolitan Transit Authority alone accounts for 5.4M passenger miles a day [2], approximately equivalent to 14,000 passengers traveling between SF and LA. More importantly, the larger the city, the more your cultural needs are met by your own city. If you live in Los Angeles, your probabilistic need to travel to San Francisco is <i>much</i> lower than someone from Fresno, because your needs are mostly met by Los Angeles. When I lived in Stockton, I travelled to Oakland or San Francisco almost on a weekly basis...but now that I live in Seattle, I travel outside of the Puget Sound region maybe 2-3 times per year.<p>In the very beginning, this faulty assumption was actually a <i>safer</i> assumption to make than it is today, due to the lack of airlines and automobiles. The railroad literally was the fastest way to get from city to city, with no exceptions. But now it isn&#x27;t. Once you go over about 300 miles, a well timed trip by plane is often as fast or faster (a lot of people will say that 500 miles is the threshold of competitiveness, but travel market share peaks and then drops off after about 300 miles). Under 100 miles, the freedom of a car to leave without a schedule often makes cars faster. Any time you have competition, you lower your market share, with your comparative competitiveness determining how much market share you lose.<p>So this is how it has played out hundreds if not thousands of times in the history of railroads: 1) Some big city businessman sees a slow trip to a city that he commonly has to travel to. He sees a demand for faster transportation. He throws together a business plan that makes the correct assumption that City A has X people, City B has Y people, and a fast connection between them will yield Z% market share of the travel D demand between them. He figures that in order to get that fast travel time, he can only stop at the largest cities in between...or possibly no stops at all! He then looks up a similar city or railroad (lets say B &amp; S railroad), looks at ridership figures, and tries to back into D, and then inflates the Z figure to reflect the fact that his railroad will be faster because there are fewer stops. Therefore his revenue model becomes X * 0.5D * Z * P + Y * 0.5D * Z * P (where P == ticket price) 2) He sells some stocks and bonds (or in the case of modern capitalism, lobbies for grants), and builds a railroad. From this article, it looks like this step is starting. 3) After a few months, he realizes his model is inaccurate. At this point, he will do one of two things: either advertise more or remove stops to make it faster, both of which exacerbate the cash flow problem. 4) After about a year, he is bankrupt. The bondholders reclaim as much as they can by selling the railroad to some other capitalist who will with high assurance do exactly the same thing, but with a greater chance of success due to a much lower investment. And thus plays out the railroad consolidation game.<p>In terms of the model, his failure was actually three failures multiplied together. 1) He assumed that the ridership of B &amp; S railroad was primarily between termini. This meant his D figure was too low because he vastly underestimated the demand to and from the small intermediate cities. 2) He assumed that B &amp; S ridership figures were rides at full terminus-to-terminus prices, therefore inflating P. 3) He assumed that D was a linear function of population, ignoring that the larger the city the lower the cultural need for travel, thereby inflating D. The only thing he got right was X and Y.<p>The practical implication of this is that if you want a successful, profit-maximizing railroad, you need to optimize the need for speed with the need to pick up passengers along the way. If you are a capitalist that cares about maximizing profit, this unfortunately means having a railroad that looks like a slow kludge, because it means making unglamourous stops in unglamourous towns. And it also means that technophile idealism puts you at a competitive disadvantage.<p>[1] for more information&#x2F;history, this is a great writeup, with a couple chapters that clearly describe this delusion. It is very long, but amazingly interesting and worth reading outside of this reference for anyone interested in technocapitalism or bubble economics. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dtc.umn.edu&#x2F;~odlyzko&#x2F;doc&#x2F;hallucinations.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.dtc.umn.edu&#x2F;~odlyzko&#x2F;doc&#x2F;hallucinations.pdf</a>)<p>[2] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.apta.com&#x2F;resources&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;Documents&#x2F;FactBook&#x2F;2013-APTA-Fact-Book.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.apta.com&#x2F;resources&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;Documents&#x2F;FactBook&#x2F;...</a>
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joelrunyon将近 10 年前
Why would they build this in California? Why not pick a place in pretty much ANY other place in the US that has demonstrably cheaper land.
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skizm将近 10 年前
Isn&#x27;t hyperloop not supposed to be efficient unless it runs over 1000 miles or something like that? It has to basically ride in the valley of a soundwave and to get up to speed and back to rest takes the majority of the time and a good amount of runway.
joshdance将近 10 年前
In the article they quote someone as saying if you lose the vacuum everyone crashes? That seems to be exactly opposite what I read in other articles. Is that true?
trhway将近 10 年前
if we&#x27;re going to build a 5 mile evacuated pipe while not try to use it as a prototype of a space launch? At modest 50G acceleration the exit speed would be 2.5km&#x2F;s - not a production, but it would be a good test prototype to get real funding for the real deal to the top of Kilimanjaro.
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wehadfun将近 10 年前
The article makes it sound like a flea could come in there and kill everyone.
the_falcon将近 10 年前
The wording of this article is interesting. I personally know the people behind this project. This is from a PR firm, and kickstarter knockoff who &#x27;lost&#x27; a lot of my friends startups money<p>This company (Hyperloop Transportation Technologies) got no funding, Hyperloop Technologies did ($8.5m).(which is in reality a PR firm called jumpstarter pr in El Segundo)<p>They are hoping to raise the funding at IPO<p>&quot;Now, the company Hyperloop Transportation Technologies Inc. (which is not affiliated with Musk or Tesla) has inked a deal with landowners in central California to build the world&#x27;s first Hyperloop test track&quot;<p>&quot;The 5-mile test track is estimated to cost about $100 million, which Hyperloop Transportation Technologies hopes to pay for with its initial public offering (IPO) later this year, according to Navigant&#x27;s blog.&quot;<p>Musk is building his own Separately, Musk has said he plans to build his own 5-mile test track, likely in Texas, for companies and students to test out potential Hyperloop designs.