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White House Sides with Oracle, Tells Supreme Court APIs Are Copyrightable

200 点作者 dengnan将近 10 年前

32 条评论

rincebrain将近 10 年前
It&#x27;s not obvious from the LWN article, but the reason it says &quot;White House&quot; is that lawyers from the DoJ have filed an Amicus Curiae (&quot;Friend of the Court&quot;) brief informing them of their stance on the topic. [1] [2]<p>[1] - <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;white-house-sides-with-oracle-tells-supreme-court-apis-are-copyrightable&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;white-house-sides...</a><p>[2] - <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cdn.arstechnica.net&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;google-oracleverrillijr.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cdn.arstechnica.net&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;google...</a>
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Joky将近 10 年前
I&#x27;ve always wondered if there is not a general conspiracy of lawyers to protect their &quot;industry&quot;. They have all interests to keep the current patent system, as well as extending copyright protection to anything: it keeps the demand for lawyers high.<p>Of course you have the same view of software and&#x2F;or system engineer, who build broken systems just to justify billing more maintenance :)
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sambeau将近 10 年前
<p><pre><code> &quot;declaring code and the structure, sequence, and organization of the API packages are entitled to copyright protection.&quot; </code></pre> Would this apply to REST APIs too?<p>Someone needs to explain to them that that would be like being able to copyright how files are organised in a drawer, how books are organised on shelves in a Library, how a book is indexed, how departments in a company are named, how streets are numbered, how campus room numbers relate to floors and buildings, roads, flights, cashier tickets, ...
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JoshTriplett将近 10 年前
On the one hand, this would have serious implications for compatible FOSS reimplementations of proprietary APIs, such as Wine, libc, emulators, etc.<p>On the other hand, this would make it <i>far</i> easier to enforce copyleft licenses like the GPL.<p>I&#x27;m one of the people who provided text and examples filed in the EFF&#x27;s amicus brief against, and on balance I&#x27;m not a fan of stricter copyright like this, but it&#x27;s interesting to consider how this ruling could be used positively.
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stormqloud将近 10 年前
Another win for lawyers.<p>Unfortunately now the USA is goign to try to push this ruling all over the world with TIPP (<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investm...</a>).<p>It&#x27;s not enough that the USA destroys their own entrepreneurial spirit but everybody else as well.
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briantmaurer将近 10 年前
Programming is in this odd position somewhere between the structure of math and the creativity of writing. Some things feel as obvious as basic addition, which clearly should not be copyrightable, while other things feel as clever as complex poems, which clearly should be copyrightable.<p>I am not a copyright expert, but in my opinion APIs usually fall closer to the structured math half of programming.<p>ex. GET, POST, PUT, or DELETE to the following:<p>&#x2F;users<p>&#x2F;messages<p>&#x2F;comments<p>&#x2F;login<p>&#x2F;logout<p>&#x2F;signup<p>&#x2F;payments<p>etc.<p>Who gets those copyrights?
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suprgeek将近 10 年前
A Stunningly bad idea if this were ever to stand. A really idiotic move by the Whitehouse - increasing the scope of the Copyright law is probably the last thing people thought of with the whole &quot;Hope &amp; Change&quot; thing.<p>Something like WINE would be in a whole mess of trouble not to mention that a decision of such magnitude would enrich the Lawyers and decimate the Software industry.
btilly将近 10 年前
Entirely predictable.<p>Obama&#x27;s VP was one of the strongest supporters of all things copyright in Congress during his legislative career. Obama&#x27;s administration has clearly been on the side of Hollywood etc as well. Given that fact, on any issue you can depend on this administration to come down on the side of the strongest and most expansive possible interpretation of what should be covered by copyright.<p>In this conflict, Oracle wants copyright to cover more things. Google wants it to only cover what it has historically covered. Therefore this administration will back Oracle.
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codecamper将近 10 年前
ridiculous. copywriter apis will breed a whole new class of lawsuits making it less feasible for smaller companies to compete.<p>What about POST to &#x2F;login who copyrights that one first?<p>Of course there is the right to parody. I wonder if we&#x27;ll see parodies of APIs as a way to sidestep copyright.
discordianfish将近 10 年前
I think this will cause a lot people to move away from java and ultimately harm Oracle most, causing other companies to not follow their example. Let&#x27;s just stay away from java, there are plenty of free languages.
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bch将近 10 年前
<p><pre><code> s&#x2F;^\([a-zA-Z_]*\)(\(.*\))$&#x2F;ggl_\1(\2)&#x2F; ?? </code></pre> This ruling sounds horrible... very curious to hear point-of-view of people who think otherwise.<p>Edit: my regexp joke is mangled by markup, but who cares ?<p>Edit: fixed regexp display (not that it affects joke).
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VaidasC将近 10 年前
I don&#x27;t follow this too much, so might be talking nonsense, however I don&#x27;t understand where all this fuss is coming from.<p>From the start of this I interpreted situation this way - Java&#x27;s goal was &quot;run everywhere&quot; (wherever it succeeded or not is for everyone to decide, but its irrelevant here). Java JDK follows this goal with main license requirement - you can implement your own SDK, but you should take all APIs, not part of it - all or nothing deal. Goal being that programs from main JDK should run on your new SDK.<p>This principle was violated by Google and I just don&#x27;t see why anyone would support Google side from rational point of view (not talking about morality, innovation or whatever).
angersock将近 10 年前
What can we do? Is there a place we can (as an economic sector) throw money to make this happen?<p>Fucking hell.<p>EDIT:<p>Thanks Obama!<p><i>&quot;The Justice Department is weighing in on the hot-button intellectual property dispute between Google and Oracle, telling the Supreme Court that APIs are protected by copyright.<p>The Obama administration&#x27;s position means it is siding with Oracle and a federal appeals court that said application programming interfaces are subject to copyright protections. The high court in January asked for the government&#x27;s views on the closely watched case.&quot;</i>
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drkrab将近 10 年前
If APIs are copyrightable, then so are protocols. Hmm.
antimatter将近 10 年前
Silly question. Is there any potential for Google to move off of Java (perhaps to Go) for Android development as a result of this?
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arihant将近 10 年前
A parallel question - who owns copyrights to community written APIs of MySQL that Oracle so conveniently sells?
username3将近 10 年前
Every API function name should have to be trademarked instead.
username3将近 10 年前
Naming things is one of the hard things in Computer Science.
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fian将近 10 年前
So, if the Supreme Court rules that APIs are copyrightable, then wouldn&#x27;t that mean that someone could use AWS with some, for example, Java code generation tools that created classes with method names comprised of randomly selected words from a dictionary - effectively performing a &quot;million monkeys with a million typewriters&quot; attack on the entire possible API naming space?<p>Publish the generated code on Github. Early on, you would need to test the generated code against publicly published APIs to ensure you didn&#x27;t publish code infringing on existing APIs, however, over time you could &quot;own&quot; the remaining API naming space.
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seizethecheese将近 10 年前
This thread is overwhelmingly against this stance by the DoJ, with a few &quot;mixed&quot; reactions. Whenever I see threads like this I wonder about opposing viewpoints...<p>Does anyone think this is a good thing? If so, why?
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yonran将近 10 年前
What is the motivation for the Solicitor General to put out such a brief? Is he required for some reason to make statements about matters he does not understand? This brief repeatedly claims that programmer familiarity was the sole reason for copying the JDK APIs and completely rejects the fact that compatibility with existing libraries (such as Guava, apache commons) was a technical goal, on the absurd grounds that Android does not implement ALL of the JDK (e.g. java.awt, javax.swing).
datashovel将近 10 年前
<p><pre><code> Oracle ... said the appellate court&#x27;s decision was a &quot;win for the entire software industry that relies on copyright protection to fuel innovation.&quot; </code></pre> <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2015&#x2F;01&#x2F;supreme-court-asks-doj-to-weigh-in-on-google-oracle-api-copyright-flap&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2015&#x2F;01&#x2F;supreme-court-ask...</a>
datashovel将近 10 年前
It seems obvious at this point that no matter where the government draws the line, the open source movement will fight through it until all software that should reasonably be freely available is freely available.<p>For this reason I really think it&#x27;s a moot point.<p>The unfortunate aspect of this is every hour &#x2F; day government employees continue to debate this is another hour &#x2F; day those government employees could be doing something useful.
comex将近 10 年前
(To rehash what I said on Twitter...)<p>I don&#x27;t think this is as bad as the headlines make it sound.<p>Here&#x27;s a direct link to the brief in case you can&#x27;t find it in the article (I couldn&#x27;t):<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;computemagazine.com&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;Google-v-Oracle-Solicitor-General-Brief.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;computemagazine.com&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;Google...</a><p>While the DoJ does fully agree with Oracle on the question of copyrightability, the brief goes into some length about its belief that interoperability issues <i>would</i> be appropriate and relevant to a fair use argument - fair use being the question that was never decided in the original trial due to a hung jury, and AFAIK would be subject to appeals regarding the legal standard anyway. For example, it states: &quot;Interoperability and lock-in concerns like those raised by petitioner can appropriately be considered as part of fair-use analysis.&quot;<p>Now, if you&#x27;re FOSS Patents, you take the one sentence where the DoJ uncritically repeats a claim about interoperability that&#x27;s been made several times in the record and never really contested, as part of its restatement of the facts, and you extrapolate it into something &quot;damning&quot; for Google&#x27;s entire fair use argument:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fosspatents.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;us-dept-of-justice-finds-googles.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fosspatents.com&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;us-dept-of-justice-finds-...</a><p>The claim is: &quot;The Android platform uses the Java programming language, but petitioner purposely designed Android not to be compatible with the Java platform or interoperable with Java programs.&quot; I&#x27;ll get to that in a bit.<p>Mr. Mueller argues that the discussion on the relevance of fair use is just window dressing and that &quot;the U.S. government has also concluded that Google can&#x27;t make a &#x27;fair use&#x27; argument based on compatibility or interoperability because of the specifics of this case&quot;. Based, as far as I can tell, only on that sentence (and a repetition later), never mind that the brief also explicitly mentions that Google&#x27;s argument about programmer fluency (i.e. even if Android isn&#x27;t compatible with Java <i>software</i>, it avoids lock-in by letting programmers use their existing skills) is relevant to fair use... or the fact that the issue which is supposedly pivotal is only mentioned in passing... or that the appeals judgement which Google is trying to get overruled already states, and the brief quotes, that there are not yet &quot;sufficient factual findings&quot; regarding the questions involved in fair use - for the DoJ to actually be rejecting Google&#x27;s fair use argument, it would have to be supposing that there are already sufficient findings, without actually saying so.<p>So much for that.<p>But let&#x27;s get back to that statement, about Android not being compatible with Java programs. If you&#x27;re like me, you found it absurd on its face when it first showed up in the appeals judgement, because while Android is not compatible with <i>entire JME applications</i>, it is compatible with many Java libraries and with non-UI code, which in reality is extremely important if you&#x27;re trying to port your Java codebase to Android. I think (correct me if I&#x27;m wrong) that Google can&#x27;t really start an argument over it, because Oracle made these contentions at trial and Google did not contest them then. I fail to understand how Google&#x27;s lawyers allowed such a misleading claim to reach a jury when it did - maybe, as non-programmers, they didn&#x27;t fully understand the issue either. But in any case, if the Supreme Court rejects Google&#x27;s case and there is a new trial on fair use, Google will have a chance to start fresh with the whole line of reasoning.<p>It will arguably be better for all of us if the Supreme Court accepts the case anyway and decides Oracle has indeed failed at the first hurdle - that Google has not copied something copyrightable in the first place - because the more uncertainty there is around clean room reimplementations in general, the more people will be discouraged from working on such projects, decreasing interoperability. Also, fair use is <i>partially</i> a question of fact (as opposed to law) and thus for a jury, and while I wouldn&#x27;t trust judges these days to truly understand the facts and actual practices around software issues, as opposed to making analogies that act like a funhouse mirror... I trust randomly selected juries even less. But in reality, the applicability of copyrightability vs. fair use is a relatively arcane question that will be decided in part by however the statute happens to be worded, and Oracle getting to the next hurdle instead is not the end of the world.<p>Also, even if the lack of compatibility with entire applications is (implicitly or explicitly) found critical in such an argument, projects like Wine which <i>are</i> more principled about compatibility and <i>do</i> run entire existing applications will have some wiggle room. So don&#x27;t despair...
codecamper将近 10 年前
If the federal government cannot figure out how to protect people&#x27;s tax returns from hackers (yes the IRS was hacked by &quot;criminals&quot; recently), and if it spends hundreds of millions (billions?) on re-coding the IRS only to fail every time, then it certainly has no business trying to regulate APIs.
nastygibbon将近 10 年前
Can someone give us an ELI5? Pros&#x2F;Cons etc.
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w0rmwood将近 10 年前
Eternal facepalm. Expected better than this.
gamesbrainiac将近 10 年前
What does this mean for android?
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Splendor将近 10 年前
This link should probably be changed to point directly to the Ars post: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;white-house-sides-with-oracle-tells-supreme-court-apis-are-copyrightable&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;tech-policy&#x2F;2015&#x2F;05&#x2F;white-house-sides...</a>
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curiously将近 10 年前
Oracle finally showing their true colors...
shit_parade2将近 10 年前
Why do people care what the supreme court rules?<p>The US is no longer a country ruled by law. If anything the more ridiculous and barbaric the government becomes the better as it will only swell the ranks of those who realize the government is illegitimate.
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thrillgore将近 10 年前
Traitor!